A question for BAME forum members

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caravaggio2
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The question is...Why?
Lower proportions of black and Asian staff at a hospital trust have come forward to have a Covid-19 vaccine, according to a study.
The analysis found 70.9% of white staff at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust had received the jab, compared with 58.5% of South Asian staff and 36.8% of black staff.
This could have "major implications" for vaccine roll-out, the report said.
A union said it was important to understand "any reasons for hesitancy".

From the BBC website Covid: Lower jab take-up by BAME NHS staff 'a concern' - BBC News

Its not just the staff but the BAME general public too.
Is it a cultural thing or are anti vaxxers a lot more active in your community?
As the virus kills disproportionately in the BAME community and this is just what the vaccine is designed for ie to give you a better fighting chance of coming through it safely and recovering well, why the reluctance to take it.
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Mkm5
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I’m British Indian and I know my nans had the vaccine (she works in social care) but my grandparents havent yet and they’d want to receive it. I didn’t know about these stats - thanks for sharing!
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harrysbar
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(Original post by caravaggio2)
The question is...Why?
Lower proportions of black and Asian staff at a hospital trust have come forward to have a Covid-19 vaccine, according to a study.
The analysis found 70.9% of white staff at the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust had received the jab, compared with 58.5% of South Asian staff and 36.8% of black staff.
This could have "major implications" for vaccine roll-out, the report said.
A union said it was important to understand "any reasons for hesitancy".

From the BBC website Covid: Lower jab take-up by BAME NHS staff 'a concern' - BBC News

Its not just the staff but the BAME general public too.
Is it a cultural thing or are anti vaxxers a lot more active in your community?
As the virus kills disproportionately in the BAME community and this is just what the vaccine is designed for ie to give you a better fighting chance of coming through it safely and recovering well, why the reluctance to take it.
I’ve heard it said that it’s a lack of trust among the BAME community that this vaccine will be in their best interests- but it will.
I will be interested to see what other people say, it’s an important question to ask
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MatureStudent37
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I’m not from an ethnic minority.

This pandemic is real. Please get vaccinated and stay safe.
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Imane888
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(Original post by Azagthoa)
It is simply because throughout history white people have used BAME to perform horrific medical experiments and have viewed them as second class citizens. As a result, BAME people rightly do not trust the vaccine since the ignorance and structural racism implicit behind the development of the vaccine means that many BAME lives could be in danger should they take up this vaccine. As we have seen, structural racism has lead to more COVID deaths in the UK of BAME people than white people per capita. It is why we need decolonise medicine and medical schools and why diversity, equity and inclusion is the most important and pressing topic of our time.

The NHS must do more to tackle white privilege.
You actually believe the conspiracy theory that the vaccine is a medical test so that my BAME behind can be gone? ok nexttime can't believe i'm saying this but debunk this nonsense lol.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Azagthoa)
It is simply because throughout history white people have used BAME to perform horrific medical experiments and have viewed them as second class citizens. As a result, BAME people rightly do not trust the vaccine since the ignorance and structural racism implicit behind the development of the vaccine means that many BAME lives could be in danger should they take up this vaccine. As we have seen, structural racism has lead to more COVID deaths in the UK of BAME people than white people per capita. It is why we need decolonise medicine and medical schools and why diversity, equity and inclusion is the most important and pressing topic of our time.

The NHS must do more to tackle white privilege.
Explain to me what you think the NHS must do to tackle white privilege? Then can you explain what white privilege is please?
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caravaggio2
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
You’re an angry middle class white girl aren’t you?

Explain to me what you think the NHS must do do tackle white privilege? Then can you explain what white privilege is please?

But thanks for derailing an important thread.
You're right, it is too important a thread to be derailed. I always thought there was a fair few BAME FMs on here and was trying to bring up a serious point and get a handle on why they are deliberately putting their own lives at risk. Better to ask somebody in that community.
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Justvisited
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(Original post by harrysbar)
Exactly...I was hoping for some sensible comments from BAME forum members but instead we get this person hurling their endless vitriol over this important thread, which will put others off from contributing.
Consider the possibility that it's satire, intended to troll the people who actually do mean it seriously.

It's gold-plated nonsense from start to finish.

There is no structural racism or white privilege in a vaccine's simultaneous rollout to all ethnicities with no ethnic or racial factor in JCVI's prioritisation criteria - neither for blacks first to use them as guinea pigs nor for whites first so they're protected before blacks are.

Whatever was done in the past has nothing to do with the way these vaccines were developed, tested and now deployed.

The only question remains: why would blacks and S Asians be more likely to believe anti-vaxx propaganda (race-based or otherwise)? After all I've read about it I still don't know.
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harrysbar
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(Original post by Justvisited)
Consider the possibility that it's satire, intended to troll the people who actually do mean it seriously.

It's gold-plated nonsense from start to finish.

There is no structural racism or white privilege in a vaccine's simultaneous rollout to all ethnicities with no ethnic or racial factor in JCVI's prioritisation criteria - neither for blacks first to use them as guinea pigs nor for whites first so they're protected before blacks are.

Whatever was done in the past has nothing to do with the way these vaccines were developed, tested and now deployed.

The only question remains: why would blacks and S Asians be more likely to believe anti-vaxx propaganda (race-based or otherwise)? After all I've read about it I still don't know.
Thank you, yes I should consider the very distinct possibility that they are trolling. I just wish they wouldn't do it at the expense of BAME people who they are purporting to represent.

I don't know either :dontknow: It's great that some BAME community leaders and role models (even from Love Island, why not?) are coming forward to promote vaccination and hopefully that will help, but it would be good to get to the root problem of why they are more hesitatnt than the white community when the vaccine works the same way for all of us.
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ANM775
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(Original post by harrysbar)
I’ve heard it said that it’s a lack of trust among the BAME community that this vaccine will be in their best interests- but it will.
I will be interested to see what other people say, it’s an important question to ask
My Dad believes a medicine given to my grandad in hospital (years ago) made him lose his mind.

Also he believes last year that the government were trying to experiment the vaccine on black people by disguising it as the flu vaccine (he refused his)
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harrysbar
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(Original post by ANM775)
My Dad believes a medicine given to my grandad in hospital (years ago) made him lose his mind.

Also he believes last year that the government were trying to experiment the vaccine on black people by disguising it as the flu vaccine (he refused his)
That is irrational - same as my aunt and uncle beliving my cousin's MMR jab made her autistic.

Your Dad sounds a bit of a conspiracy theorist if you don't mind me saying, but I believe you yourself will take the jab when offered? You're a younger generation so do you think younger BAME people are less suspicious of getting a covid vaccine than older people?
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nexttime
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(Original post by Imane888)
You actually believe the conspiracy theory that the vaccine is a medical test so that my BAME behind can be gone? ok nexttime can't believe i'm saying this but debunk this nonsense lol.
I mean, its hard to debunk something so detached from reality! For what its worth, I can assure that there is no conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands of NHS workers to experiment on black/BAME people via the vaccine? :dontknow: Go down to the vaccine centre and see the white people getting it too? :dontknow:

Whilst I don't think the reason that black people have such low uptake is that they all believe its a racial experiment, its also hard to completely dismiss such views as trolling. There are plenty of people out there who do believe things like covid is fake, its caused by 5G, Trump is fighting a war against paedophiles, the NHS is a white colonial institution even though almost 50% of doctors are non-white, all the good stuff. If they aren't real, they definitely could have been.

But this vaccine uptake rate is symptomatic of a larger non-participation in healthcare by the BAME/black community, and it is a very important problem. They are less likely to seek medical help, less likely to give blood, less likely to be organ donors meaning black people wait twice as long as white for organs, etc. They are a lot more likely to seek out alternative medicine too (even though that costs money, and the NHS does not).

You also see this kind of thinking by whole governments of course - like in Tanzania where the government is recommending some kind of drink as a cure and rejected the vaccine that was being offered for free by AZ. If you're a recent immigrant from there, you can maybe see how that might also influence you.

That is a major problem, and is worth highlighting.
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ANM775
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(Original post by harrysbar)
That is irrational - same as my aunt and uncle beliving my cousin's MMR jab made her autistic.

Your Dad sounds a bit of a conspiracy theorist if you don't mind me saying, but I believe you yourself will take the jab when offered? You're a younger generation so do you think younger BAME people are less suspicious of getting a covid vaccine than older people?

tbh i can see why they may be a bit suspicious... as when I was a baby i had a vaccine and had quite a very disturbing reaction to it that lasted months. doctors told my parents that it wasn't the vaccine. doctors insisted it was just coincidence. then when my brother came along he had that same reaction i had to the same vaccine and the doctors still said it wasn't the vaccine... etc etc

when my sister came along, my parents refused her the vaccine. eventually a doctor probed her as to why and she said about the past reactions to the vaccine. then the new doctor said yes ... those reactions are well documented, we have changed the vaccine now. my mother was angry that in the past they made her feel like a mad woman and said it wasn't the vaccine..

I will probably still take the vaccine, as i figure the virus has a better chance of killing me than the vaccine.
hopefully it ends up the right decision and the vaccine doesn't end up screwing me over..

As for the younger generation being less suspicious ..i am not sure. i have spoke only spoke to 2 younger bame people regarding the vaccine and both didn't seem keen on it. having said that i did speak to 1 white guy in his 50s surrounding the vaccine too and he said he wasn't having it either as he was worried about side effects.....
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ANM775
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(Original post by harrysbar)
That is irrational - same as my aunt and uncle beliving my cousin's MMR jab made her autistic.

Your Dad sounds a bit of a conspiracy theorist if you don't mind me saying, but I believe you yourself will take the jab when offered? You're a younger generation so do you think younger BAME people are less suspicious of getting a covid vaccine than older people?
my other grandad also claimed medication from the doctors made him diabetic

tbh, i've got to admit do find it a bit strange for him to have developed it so late in life...........
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harrysbar
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(Original post by ANM775)
tbh i can see why they may be a bit suspicious... as when I was a baby i had a vaccine and had quite a very disturbing reaction to it that lasted months. doctors told my parents that it wasn't the vaccine. doctors insisted it was just coincidence. then when my brother came along he had that same reaction i had to the same vaccine and the doctors still said it wasn't the vaccine... etc etc

when my sister came along, my parents refused her the vaccine. eventually a doctor probed her as to why and she said about the past reactions to the vaccine. then the new doctor said yes ... those reactions are well documented, we have changed the vaccine now. my mother was angry that in the past they made her feel like a mad woman and said it wasn't the vaccine..

I will probably still take the vaccine, as i figure the virus has a better chance of killing me than the vaccine.
hopefully it ends up the right decision and the vaccine doesn't end up screwing me over..

As for the younger generation being less suspicious ..i am not sure.
Sounds like you actually do have some reason to be hesitant in your family due to previous negative experiences but surely that isn't the case for most BAME families.

I agree with your point about the virus being riskier than the vaccine, for people who do see vaccines as risky. Maybe that is the angle public health should work on rather than constantly saying there is no risk to the vaccine. Because clearly some people just won't believe them, and it's not quite true anyway as it does carry a tiny risk - just not as great as the risk of getting seriously ill if not vaccinated.
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ANM775
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(Original post by harrysbar)
Sounds like you actually do have some reason to be hesitant in your family due to previous negative experiences but surely that isn't the case for most BAME families.

I agree with your point about the virus being riskier than the vaccine, for people who do see vaccines as risky. Maybe that is the angle public health should work on rather than constantly saying there is no risk to the vaccine. Because clearly some people just won't believe them, and it's not quite true anyway as it does carry a tiny risk - just not as great as the risk of getting seriously ill if not vaccinated.
They agreed with me that the virus is more likely to kill them than the vaccine. but they also seem pretty convinced they won't even catch covid.

whilst it's true they don't go out much and are probably taking more precautions that the average person, there is still risk they could get it ....or catch it from me or my siblings if we see them.

i've actually had another relative die from it, and one is currently in the ICU with it. they were at least 80.
I've no idea if they turned down or had the vaccine as by my estimates it was just starting to be rolled out when they caught it.......

but i hope that this reality check will make them sit up and perhaps reconsider..
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Joinedup
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Well I think the government has seen it coming - Floella Benjamin* getting the covid jab was in the news to try and dispel BAME vaccine reluctance which had started showing up in attitude surveys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55817779

* She's really well known for being one of the BBC's main childrens TV presenter in the 1970's and 80's so although you might not have heard of her, probably the 70-80 years olds and definitely their children who might have some influence on their parents will have.

---
The steam inhalation meme/conspiracy theory has been mentioned in the press
https://metro.co.uk/2021/02/10/docto...ovid-14060654/

I'd never heard about it til recently but apparently it's really widely circulated among people with south Asian heritage. Really sad that people are taking the threat of covid seriously and want to do something about it... but instead of booking in for the proper vaccinations they're following some stupid meme they saw on whatsapp.

--update--

FWIW the first thing I heard about the fake treatment with steam inhalation was this reporter who I heard on the radio last week
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-55994597

but apparently the steam meme was already circulating widely back in April 2020
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52124740

Maybe it wasn't so harmful before the vaccines were available if people were taking sensible precautions along with doing the useless steam treatment... but now the steam meme is really well established and if it's preventing people coming forward for vaccinations it's looking like the social media companies should have been stepping on it a lot sooner.
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caravaggio2
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If youtube can remove an OFCOM regulated radio station (talkradio) from their platform because they hosted an interview with a Professor that was a Lockdown sceptic, they should be stomping on vaccination sceptics in the bame community spreading disinformation that will cost lives.
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Hallouminatus
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I notice that this article only reports statistics from a single hospital. I wonder if these figures are representative of what's going on in the rest of the country. Quite apart from the disparities between ethnic groups, the reported uptake by staff overall seems rather low, considering that overall 93% uptake has been reported among over 75-year-olds offered the vaccine.
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nexttime
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(Original post by ANM775)
tbh, i've got to admit do find it a bit strange for him to have developed it so late in life...........
Type 2 diabetes? Older people have the highest rate of diagnosis.
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