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Next month's census will conflate data on sex and gender
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
So I guess Fair Play For Women's concern is trivial and Stonewall are incompetent, then?
So I guess Fair Play For Women's concern is trivial and Stonewall are incompetent, then?
According to FPFW, Stonewall "say it's simply too offensive and hurtful to ask a trans person a factual question about sex they were born."
However, I haven't seen such a statement on Stonewall's website, so I don't know if that is a fair summary of their position.
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#22
(Original post by Hallouminatus)
Not sure where you get that from?
According to FPFW, Stonewall "say it's simply too offensive and hurtful to ask a trans person a factual question about sex they were born."
However, I haven't seen such a statement on Stonewall's website, so I don't know if that is a fair summary of their position.
Not sure where you get that from?
According to FPFW, Stonewall "say it's simply too offensive and hurtful to ask a trans person a factual question about sex they were born."
However, I haven't seen such a statement on Stonewall's website, so I don't know if that is a fair summary of their position.
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I was referring to your claim that they have a lot of influence in the ONS and want accurate data on transgender people. If Stonewall were behind the question, then they're not very competent.
I was referring to your claim that they have a lot of influence in the ONS and want accurate data on transgender people. If Stonewall were behind the question, then they're not very competent.
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#24
(Original post by anarchism101)
The point in question is what questions should be on a census. I think it's a bit more than a stretch to argue that the requirement to provide your birth sex on the census form is some hard-won "right".
The point in question is what questions should be on a census. I think it's a bit more than a stretch to argue that the requirement to provide your birth sex on the census form is some hard-won "right".
I didn't refer to anyone being white, poor or bigoted. Nor did I say that everyone opposed to trans inclusion is old, just that they are more likely to be old, which was not so much significant in itself, but only insofar as the other correlations it indicates.
You're demonstrating precisely the argument I was responding to in the first place. It is in the interests of anti-trans campaigners to portray the issue as being primarily one of an intra-feminist and intra-LGBT dispute - as I said, it gives a progressive veneer to their positions. And so they push to the front the kinds of groups and figures that support such a narrative, which media outlets often just accept and repeat at face value, partly out of gullibility, and partly because it makes for a more interesting and complex story. But it's not representative of the reality of the wider public's views of trans people.
Indeed, most of the public couldnt give a stuff for the issue as, by rights, it is a non-issue for the vast majority of people. It has been made a point of contention by activists though (on both sides). Not least the ones, as you inference goes, who are so called bigots for not accepting the dogma propagated by certain groups.
I will say though, i do take serious exception to the use of the word progressive for regressive people and their politics though. As was discussed in another thread, cyber bullying/lynching, 'de-platforming' and generally calling everyone who doesnt side with you a nazi is literally the anthesis of progressive. Although that is another topic for another thread.
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#25
(Original post by Hallouminatus)
I guess until recently it simply had not occurred to anyone that the question "What is your sex?" should require clarification. The current version of the guidance doesn't require either "birth sex" or "legal sex"; it says to use the sex shown on official documents, which in most cases can be changed according to the whim of the individual.
I guess until recently it simply had not occurred to anyone that the question "What is your sex?" should require clarification. The current version of the guidance doesn't require either "birth sex" or "legal sex"; it says to use the sex shown on official documents, which in most cases can be changed according to the whim of the individual.
'Sex data will continue to be collected in a way that is consistent with previous censuses.'
https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/census...or-census-2021
so if that's the case trans people have in previous consensus been declaring this based on birth sex or legal sex, so what's the difference now except there is an additional voluntary question that asks 'Is the gender identity you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?'. how does that additional question change the sex statiatic as it's always been collected?
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(Original post by Joleee)
the question on sex is the same question from previous consensus tho, right? at least it says on the gov.uk website
'Sex data will continue to be collected in a way that is consistent with previous censuses.'
https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/census...or-census-2021
so if that's the case trans people have in previous consensus been declaring this based on birth sex or legal sex, so what's the difference now except there is an additional voluntary question that asks 'Is the gender identity you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?'. how does that additional question change the sex statiatic as it's always been collected?
the question on sex is the same question from previous consensus tho, right? at least it says on the gov.uk website
'Sex data will continue to be collected in a way that is consistent with previous censuses.'
https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/census...or-census-2021
so if that's the case trans people have in previous consensus been declaring this based on birth sex or legal sex, so what's the difference now except there is an additional voluntary question that asks 'Is the gender identity you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?'. how does that additional question change the sex statiatic as it's always been collected?
I believe people are concerned not only about the direct effect this will have on the accuracy and reliability of the data collected, but also about the possibility that once the meanings of words such as male and female have changed in the census, their meanings will be increasingly distorted or misconstrued, either deliberately or inadvertently, in other contexts, by the ONS or by other public bodies.
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#27
(Original post by Hallouminatus)
I don't think people are objecting to the additional question on gender ID so much as the guidance for the sex question, which says you should answer according to the sex shown on documents, which can be changed at will, rather than either your biological sex, which can't change, or your legal sex, which only changes if you get a gender recognition certificate.
I believe people are concerned not only about the direct effect this will have on the accuracy and reliability of the data collected, but also about the possibility that once the meanings of words such as male and female have changed in the census, their meanings will be increasingly distorted or misconstrued, either deliberately or inadvertently, in other contexts, by the ONS or by other public bodies.
I don't think people are objecting to the additional question on gender ID so much as the guidance for the sex question, which says you should answer according to the sex shown on documents, which can be changed at will, rather than either your biological sex, which can't change, or your legal sex, which only changes if you get a gender recognition certificate.
I believe people are concerned not only about the direct effect this will have on the accuracy and reliability of the data collected, but also about the possibility that once the meanings of words such as male and female have changed in the census, their meanings will be increasingly distorted or misconstrued, either deliberately or inadvertently, in other contexts, by the ONS or by other public bodies.
i *assume* if the concern is knowing how many trans/non-binary citizens are in the UK the board analysing this can look at the gender identity question. like, i can't imagine any trans/non-binary person ignoring it because it goes to the heart of who their identity is.
regarding the guidance, which legal document can be changed at will? not a passport or a driving licence at least.
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence
but it doesn't matter anyway because when sending in the form you don't have to submit supporting documents, or do you?
Last edited by Joleee; 1 week ago
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(Original post by Joleee)
regarding the guidance, which legal document can be changed at will? not a passport or a driving licence at least.
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence
but it doesn't matter anyway because when sending in the form you don't have to submit supporting documents, or do you?
regarding the guidance, which legal document can be changed at will? not a passport or a driving licence at least.
https://www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender
https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence
but it doesn't matter anyway because when sending in the form you don't have to submit supporting documents, or do you?
You are entirely correct that, whatever the guidance may say, there is nothing that can stop people from lying if they really want to. Supplying false information to the census is an offence, and you could be fined £1000 for lying about you sex, but I'd imagine you'd have a fair chance of getting away with it.
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(Original post by Hallouminatus)
According to a report in The Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...dentification/, 'We are on the brink of losing robust, high-quality data on sex in the UK,' academics said. 'Once gone, we may never get it back'.
As well as academics, many feminist and LGBT organisations have expressed concerns. A group of them have issued a joint statement in which they announce the launch of a website on Sunday 21 Feb, where they will offer guidance for anyone who has concerns about this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...cUJLLgrm-g/pub
According to a report in The Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...dentification/, 'We are on the brink of losing robust, high-quality data on sex in the UK,' academics said. 'Once gone, we may never get it back'.
As well as academics, many feminist and LGBT organisations have expressed concerns. A group of them have issued a joint statement in which they announce the launch of a website on Sunday 21 Feb, where they will offer guidance for anyone who has concerns about this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...cUJLLgrm-g/pub
It outlines the problems and concerns, and offers some suggestions for action that anyone who shares these concerns can take. They also link to Fair Play For Women's fundraiser for the legal challenge to the ONS: https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/sexinthecensus2021
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#30
The ONS is right and there will be no loss of valuable data, in fact if anything that have expanded the questions to give a more accurate picture of sex and gender in the UK.
This has just become a target for TERFs that will attack anything if trans is mentioned.
This has just become a target for TERFs that will attack anything if trans is mentioned.
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#31
(Original post by Hallouminatus)
Your links show that sex on a driving licence can be changed with a deed poll or statutory declaration, either of which can be obtained at will. To change your passport you need to provide a little more evidence, such as a letter from doctor or medical consultant.
You are entirely correct that, whatever the guidance may say, there is nothing that can stop people from lying if they really want to. Supplying false information to the census is an offence, and you could be fined £1000 for lying about you sex, but I'd imagine you'd have a fair chance of getting away with it.
Your links show that sex on a driving licence can be changed with a deed poll or statutory declaration, either of which can be obtained at will. To change your passport you need to provide a little more evidence, such as a letter from doctor or medical consultant.
You are entirely correct that, whatever the guidance may say, there is nothing that can stop people from lying if they really want to. Supplying false information to the census is an offence, and you could be fined £1000 for lying about you sex, but I'd imagine you'd have a fair chance of getting away with it.
i can appreciate why the government wants a headcount for those who identify as trans/non-binary on a census, but it seems to me it's getting more information by asking the gender question, not less of it. they also have the information of who actually has a Gender Recognition Certificate so they can do the maths; so what is your real concern?
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(Original post by Joleee)
your definition of 'at will' is not accurate tbh. to change your gender on a deed poll doesn't require a doctor's note - it requires medical evidence 'confirming your change of gender is likely to be permanent'. in other words just going to a GP one day and asking for a GP note isn't going to work. also you cant just use a statutory declaration to change your gender on a driving licence - you have to submit it with additional evidence. i'm not going to copy and paste the gov.uk website here cuz it's not relevant to the op; but if you're worried about it i would say go back and re-read it to alleviate your worry.
i can appreciate why the government wants a headcount for those who identify as trans/non-binary on a census, but it seems to me it's getting more information by asking the gender question, not less of it. they also have the information of who actually has a Gender Recognition Certificate so they can do the maths; so what is your real concern?
your definition of 'at will' is not accurate tbh. to change your gender on a deed poll doesn't require a doctor's note - it requires medical evidence 'confirming your change of gender is likely to be permanent'. in other words just going to a GP one day and asking for a GP note isn't going to work. also you cant just use a statutory declaration to change your gender on a driving licence - you have to submit it with additional evidence. i'm not going to copy and paste the gov.uk website here cuz it's not relevant to the op; but if you're worried about it i would say go back and re-read it to alleviate your worry.
i can appreciate why the government wants a headcount for those who identify as trans/non-binary on a census, but it seems to me it's getting more information by asking the gender question, not less of it. they also have the information of who actually has a Gender Recognition Certificate so they can do the maths; so what is your real concern?
On changing gender i.d. on a driving licence, the gov.uk website says:
If you’ve changed your gender identity, you need to provide at least one of the following:
a deed poll
a statutory declaration
a gender recognition certificate
The optional question about gender i.d. is not the main concern (although there are issues with that question too). The main concern is the guidance for the obligatory question about sex. The question itself (What is your sex?) is fine, but the accompanying guidance which says you can answer according to the sex shown on an official document, means you can answer with a sex which is not your actual, biological sex. Paperwork doesn't change your sex, and nor do hormones or surgery for that matter. These changes may be a part of changing your gender identity, but that is clearly not the same thing. If it were, there'd be no such thing as transgender.
So while the actual question asks for sex, the guidance says you can answer with gender identity, even though there's actually a separate question on gender identity. It's a mess! And completely unnecessary: they could have avoided ambiguity by saying you should answer according to you sex registered at birth.
I do agree that the additional question on gender identity can provide useful data about the numbers of trans and non-binary people. However, the question is not very well worded. It asks: "Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?"
But gender identities are not the same thing as sexes, and many people simply do not identify with any gender. Some people who don't actually have a gender identity may believe that they should answer yes to this question because they are not trans. It's really not clear.
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This issue will be discussed on Radio 4's Woman's Hour this morning, with Dr Nicola Williams from Fair Play For Women.
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#34
(Original post by Napp)
Not a right but decidedly unhelpful when people put the incorrect or dubious information down. Censuses arent done out of mere curiosity after all.
Not a right but decidedly unhelpful when people put the incorrect or dubious information down. Censuses arent done out of mere curiosity after all.
The number of trans people in the UK is tiny, and we're talking about a tinier subset of them - specifically, those who don't have a GRC but do have some other form of official ID on which entry in the category "sex" matches up with the gender they identify as. Plus a sizable number of those will be "cancelled out" by both trans women and trans men doing the same just in opposite directions. We're talking about something that will barely affect overall results.
What was the original quote I noted in aid of then? That being the conclusion of it?
Indulge me sorry? After all, it is precisely an issue of the aforementioned (if with other arguments to and fro as well)
Indeed, most of the public couldnt give a stuff for the issue as, by rights, it is a non-issue for the vast majority of people. It has been made a point of contention by activists though (on both sides). Not least the ones, as you inference goes, who are so called bigots for not accepting the dogma propagated by certain groups.
Indeed, most of the public couldnt give a stuff for the issue as, by rights, it is a non-issue for the vast majority of people. It has been made a point of contention by activists though (on both sides). Not least the ones, as you inference goes, who are so called bigots for not accepting the dogma propagated by certain groups.
But imagine if such people were the only ones who were ever put up on stage/screen to take the Republican side in public political debates and interviews, and that the media uncritically reproduced their narrative that the primary reason for anyone voting Republican was concern for the rights and welfare of African-Americans, without noting that polling and voter data clearly show that African-Americans represent a tiny minority of the GOP voter base and the overwhelming majority of them in fact support the Democrats. Now, that would be misleading. It would misrepresent both the views of African-Americans on the whole, and the reasons of Republican supporters for voting as they did on the whole.
Now, admittedly, that is a case where we have a much greater amount of data than we do for public opinion on trans issues. But, mutatis mutandis, the same principle applies. By presenting opposition to trans inclusion and rights as being motivated primarily by a feminist concern for women's rights, you are misrepresenting it.
I will say though, i do take serious exception to the use of the word progressive for regressive people and their politics though. As was discussed in another thread, cyber bullying/lynching, 'de-platforming' and generally calling everyone who doesnt side with you a nazi is literally the anthesis of progressive. Although that is another topic for another thread.
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(Original post by anarchism101)
By presenting opposition to trans inclusion and rights as being motivated primarily by a feminist concern for women's rights, you are misrepresenting it.
By presenting opposition to trans inclusion and rights as being motivated primarily by a feminist concern for women's rights, you are misrepresenting it.
Many people, for a variety of reasons believe that the census should collect data about people's sex as registered at birth. It's also widely believed that the census should gather data about people's gender identity. There need be no conflict between these beliefs, and there's no need to argue that one or the other is more significant. There are two separate questions. It should be possible to obtain accurate information about both aspects. To do so should have no negative effects on trans inclusion and trans rights.
However, the guidance as currently formulated doesn't advise respondents to give their sex at birth, but to give their sex recorded on official documents. Since some trans people change the sex on some or all of their documents, in order that they match their gender identity, trans people can answer the question in different ways. It won't make a huge difference to the overall numbers of males and females recorded, but it is very likely to significantly affect the accuracy of the data about trans people. Trans people exist and their identities should be and recognised and accurately represented in government statistics.
People who oppose gathering data on birth sex seem reluctant to explain the reasons for their opposition, preferring to emphasise that data on gender identity should be collected (it will be) or arguing that it doesn't matter anyway because only a relatively small number of responses will be affected. But I haven't seen any clear arguments, here or elsewhere, why accurate sex data is a bad thing. The ONS is due to be challenged on this in an emergency judicial review, and it will be interesting to see what kind of arguments they will use in their defence.
The suggestion that those organisations representing women's and LGB rights which are campaigning on this issue are some sort of cover for far right, transphobic bigotry is absurd. In the absence of any evidence, anarchism101 employs far-fetched analogies with African American support for the US Republican party to support this contention.
If you oppose the gathering of data on natal sex as well as gender identity, justify your opposition.
If you believe the coalition SexInTheCensus.org is a front for far right bigotry, provide some evidence.
If you're interested in following or supporting Fair Play For Women's judicial review, look at their website: fairplayforwomen.com and fundraiser: crowdfunder.co.uk/sexinthecensus2021
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#36
I will only reply on the compulsory question and ignore the optional one.
I want women-only spaces to be protected. As a man, I should not be allowed into women only changing rooms or the women's only swimming places such as in Hampstead Heath in London.
I want women-only spaces to be protected. As a man, I should not be allowed into women only changing rooms or the women's only swimming places such as in Hampstead Heath in London.
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Next Tuesday, Fair Play For Women will be arguing in the High Court for interim relief such that the ONS is ordered to immediately take down the guidance conflating sex and gender. In that same hearing they will also be asking for permission to proceed to Judicial Review to declare the guidance unlawful.
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