Race: White, Black, Irish Watch

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an Siarach
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#41
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#41
(Original post by technik)
not many speak irish in the republic of ireland either
There are apparently far fewer speakers of gaelic in ireland than there are in Scotland now - despite the efforts (most think because of) made by the irish parliament to have everyone learn it. Welsh is the only celtic language with any real hope of survival.
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yawn
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#42
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(Original post by an Siarach)
There are apparently far fewer speakers of gaelic in ireland than there are in Scotland now - despite the efforts (most think because of) made by the irish parliament to have everyone learn it. Welsh is the only celtic language with any real hope of survival.

I disagree that there are far fewer speakers of Irish - there has been an almighty increase in gaelschoils - that is schools where all subjects are learnt through the medium of Irish. Parents are demanding that their children are immersed in their own language from a very early age - even if the mother-tongue is not spoken in the home.

There are even Montessori nurseries that use Irish exclusively.

You might be unaware of this phenomenom because it is fairly recent - i.e. within the last 10/15 years.

There is also still an advantage in taking 'Intermediate' and 'Leaving' certs (for University admission) using the medium of Irish as it automatically entitles you to a 10% top-up in overall marks.

I think it's great that Ireland/Wales/Scotland have this move towards resurrecting the speaking of their own languages. It is so much part of their heritage - a nation is not a nation unless they have their own language. This is why the invaders sought to wipe out the native tongues as they knew that it would wipe out the identity/culture, enabling them to enforce their own identity on the indigenous population. Part of the 'divide and conquer' mentality.
an Siarach
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#43
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#43
(Original post by yawn)
I disagree that there are far fewer speakers of Irish - there has been an almighty increase in gaelschoils - that is schools where all subjects are learnt through the medium of Irish. Parents are demanding that their children are immersed in their own language from a very early age - even if the mother-tongue is not spoken in the home.

There are even Montessori nurseries that use Irish exclusively.

You might be unaware of this phenomenom because it is fairly recent - i.e. within the last 10/15 years.
Youre wrong im afraid. The usual measurement of 'speakers' is similiar to counting anyone whos studied french/german/spanish at GCSE or sub GCSE level as being fluent in that language. The accepted figure of fluent speakers and those who use the language at home is between 5,000-15,000. They do the same thing in Scotland sometimes to come up with ludicrous figures of 500,000 or so for gaelic speakers when in reality it is barely above 40,000.
(Original post by yawn)
There is also still an advantage in taking 'Intermediate' and 'Leaving' certs (for University admission) using the medium of Irish as it automatically entitles you to a 10% top-up in overall marks.
This is something i think should also be put in place in Scotland but again having a school level qualification in a language does not denote fluency.
(Original post by yawn)
I think it's great that Ireland/Wales/Scotland have this move towards resurrecting the speaking of their own languages. It is so much part of their heritage - a nation is not a nation unless they have their own language. This is why the invaders sought to wipe out the native tongues as they knew that it would wipe out the identity/culture, enabling them to enforce their own identity on the indigenous population. Part of the 'divide and conquer' mentality.
I agree about how important a language is to a nation or a people and i hold the anti english nationalist brigade in contempt. Theres nothing more ironic than hearing some twit spew vitriol about the English, in English. Unless theres a drastic change in the culture of scotland gaelic has no future.
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yawn
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#44
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#44
(Original post by an Siarach)
Youre wrong im afraid. The usual measurement of 'speakers' is similiar to counting anyone whos studied french/german/spanish at GCSE or sub GCSE level as being fluent in that language. The accepted figure of fluent speakers and those who use the language at home is between 5,000-15,000. They do the same thing in Scotland sometimes to come up with ludicrous figures of 500,000 or so for gaelic speakers when in reality it is barely above 40,000.

This is something i think should also be put in place in Scotland but again having a school level qualification in a language does not denote fluency.

I agree about how important a language is to a nation or a people and i hold the anti english nationalist brigade in contempt. Theres nothing more ironic than hearing some twit spew vitriol about the English, in English. Unless theres a drastic change in the culture of scotland gaelic has no future.
Would the fact that Scotland has a population of 5,062,011 (2001 census) in comparison to Republic of Ireland's 3,917,203 (2002 census) have any bearing on the figures?

The extra percentage given to Irish students in National examinations requires fluency in Irish as ALL subjects are included, not just Irish as a separate subject.

I can see how hard it would be to 'spew vitriol about the English' in any other language than English when the indigenous language has been deliberately supressed and forbidden. That goes for the original language of the 'Angles' that was supressed by all the invaders to this country! However, with the upsurge in interest in learning one's own language, the 'vitriol' can be 'spewed' in the original language eventually.
technik
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#45
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(Original post by yawn)
Would the fact that Scotland has a population of 5,062,011 (2001 census) in comparison to Republic of Ireland's 3,917,203 (2002 census) have any bearing on the figures?

The extra percentage given to Irish students in National examinations requires fluency in Irish as ALL subjects are included, not just Irish as a separate subject.

I can see how hard it would be to 'spew vitriol about the English' in any other language than English when the indigenous language has been deliberately supressed and forbidden. That goes for the original language of the 'Angles' that was supressed by all the invaders to this country! However, with the upsurge in interest in learning one's own language, the 'vitriol' can be 'spewed' in the original language eventually.
i dont see how any language has been surpressed actively in the last xx decades/centuries. its just a fact that when the majority speak english, and everything from your newspaper to your street sign is in english that it is naturally dominant.

added to the fact english is dominant on a world level, only increases its reach.
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W*W*J*D
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#46
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#46
same as chinese my vietnamese, japanese and fili friends are always moaning about that
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yawn
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#47
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#47
(Original post by technik)
i dont see how any language has been surpressed actively in the last xx decades/centuries. its just a fact that when the majority speak english, and everything from your newspaper to your street sign is in english that it is naturally dominant.

added to the fact english is dominant on a world level, only increases its reach.
You, of all people, must know from your classes on Irish history, how the Irish language was eradicated (apart from small pockets of active resistance) in fairly recent times.

Schools were closed down, if the Irish language was heard being spoken the speaker was punished by the invading force. Books written in Irish were destroyed, teachers were forbidden to teach. 'Hedge schools' were held - in hedges - to try to pass on the language to children who were no longer taught it, even in their own homes, for fear of further persecution. The written word was printed in English. All designed to wipe out the mother tongue and subdue the native populous.

The same thing would have happened here if Hitler has managed to occupy the whole country. We would all be speaking German as our language if the same thing that was done in Ireland by English forces was done here by German forces.
NDGAARONDI
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#48
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(Original post by yawn)
The same thing would have happened here if Hitler has managed to occupy the whole country. We would all be speaking German as our language if the same thing that was done in Ireland by English forces was done here by German forces.
Not really. Hitler occupied other countries but they don't speak German now do they? A better example would be losing the Spanish Armarda, although that itslef it debatable. The main historic event which changed the English language was the introduction of our 'protectors', the Anglosaxons. If this had not happened, English would be more like Welsh, though not completely. People think it's the Romans responsible for our language, but they did less than the Anglosaxons.
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Weejimmie
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#49
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(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
The main historic event which changed the English language was the introduction of our 'protectors', the Anglosaxons.
Up to a point...English is descended from Anglosaxon. The nearest thing around today, it's thought, is the Friesian dialect. Not a bit like Welsh, which came of a collision between a Celtic language and Latin. The decisive switch from English as a Germanic language to a mongrel motley was the Norman invasion. Modern English began as a kind of pidgin.
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yawn
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#50
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#50
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Not really. Hitler occupied other countries but they don't speak German now do they? A better example would be losing the Spanish Armarda, although that itslef it debatable. The main historic event which changed the English language was the introduction of our 'protectors', the Anglosaxons. If this had not happened, English would be more like Welsh, though not completely. People think it's the Romans responsible for our language, but they did less than the Anglosaxons.
Hitler may have occupied other countries that don't speak German today - but that is because the countries were liberated shortly after the occupation. If the liberation had not come about there would be an inculcation of the German language as the official language in those countries.
hitchhiker_13
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#51
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(Original post by Agent Smith)
The language is unconnected with what it is being used to say. The value of German as a language is not diminished by the fact that it was Hitler's mother tongue.
Similarly, I have never understood the argument that Al-Qur'an must be true because its style is poetic. The language (and style) it is in have no bearing on its actual meaning. It's the difference between saying 'I hate you' and 'I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee.' (Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet, Act I Scene i.) The meaning is clear, no matter what the words. That's why rhetoric is (usually) easy to spot: there is no real meaning, just words.

The only exception to this that I can think of is lawyers, and I don't think Muhammad (PBUH) was a lawyer, what with him being so illiterate that Jibril had to dictate Al-Qur'an instead of giving him the first copy.

I wasn't making any comment about what they're saying, just the way they're saying it.
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an Siarach
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#52
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(Original post by yawn)
Would the fact that Scotland has a population of 5,062,011 (2001 census) in comparison to Republic of Ireland's 3,917,203 (2002 census) have any bearing on the figures?
I wasnt using percentages so no.
(Original post by yawn)
The extra percentage given to Irish students in National examinations requires fluency in Irish as ALL subjects are included, not just Irish as a separate subject.
So basically a single subject in ireland is the same as two subjects in the UK? Either way theres having an academic understanding of a language and then theres being fluent in the language and actually using it.
(Original post by yawn)
I can see how hard it would be to 'spew vitriol about the English' in any other language than English when the indigenous language has been deliberately supressed and forbidden. That goes for the original language of the 'Angles' that was supressed by all the invaders to this country! However, with the upsurge in interest in learning one's own language, the 'vitriol' can be 'spewed' in the original language eventually.
True there was some repression of the languages by the government but what causes the most harm is the apathy of those living in Scotland/Wales/Ireland/Brittany. On another note possibly the most harmful thing to happen to the prospects(historically) of Gaelic were the Ulster plantations. There was once a gaelic continuum from the South West of Ireland to the North East of Scotland. The plantations of English monoglot Scots in Ulster broke this and led to Scots and Irish Gaelic breaking into quite distinct languages.
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an Siarach
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#53
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(Original post by technik)
i dont see how any language has been surpressed actively in the last xx decades/centuries.
Then youve not bothered looking into it really. My mothers generation were beaten in school if they were caught speaking their own language. I have no idea how long part of the aims of schooling was the eradication of the native language but it probably went on into the 60s/70s at least. I recall reading that it was even worse in Wales.
(Original post by technik)
its just a fact that when the majority speak english, and everything from your newspaper to your street sign is in english that it is naturally dominant.

added to the fact english is dominant on a world level, only increases its reach.
Yup.
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yawn
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#54
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#54
(Original post by an Siarach)
I wasnt using percentages so no.

So basically a single subject in ireland is the same as two subjects in the UK? Either way theres having an academic understanding of a language and then theres being fluent in the language and actually using it.

True there was some repression of the languages by the government but what causes the most harm is the apathy of those living in Scotland/Wales/Ireland/Brittany. On another note possibly the most harmful thing to happen to the prospects(historically) of Gaelic were the Ulster plantations. There was once a gaelic continuum from the South West of Ireland to the North East of Scotland. The plantations of English monoglot Scots in Ulster broke this and led to Scots and Irish Gaelic breaking into quite distinct languages.

I know you weren't using percentages per se but when one uses numbers one has to convert numbers into percentages to get a truly statistical representation.

I would imagine the reason there is a 'mark-up' in marks for using Irish to answer subject questions is to encourage the speaking of the language in everyday scenarios. It is not just restricted to the academic content of the subject as the 'humanities' would require fluency - although you could get away with using the language 'academically' for say, Maths - which is a universal language. I don't see the use of Irish as a medium would say it was comparable to taking two subjects in the UK because there needs to be fluency - it's like saying that in France, because one takes exam papers in French it is like doing two subjects - or in England, taking exam papers in English is like doing two subjects. The one's who would do the paper in Irish would be using the language as a natural part of their every day lives - it's a good way to encourage the uptake of the Irish language though.

I agree with your remarks about the apathy of those whose language has been 'beaten' out of them. I do think though that with the resurgence in national pride, economic security and better standards of living, there is a resultant interest in the propogation of the native language. We are seeing this in all the Celtic countries - and that pleases me no end. Reinstate the national language and you reinstate the nation.
NDGAARONDI
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(Original post by yawn)
We are seeing this in all the Celtic countries - and that pleases me no end. Reinstate the national language and you reinstate the nation.
I'm guessing that England, despite its ancient history, is no longer regarded as a Celtic nation. I would be interested to see how the language, of what we now call English, develop had it not been for all those invasions. However, this will be an impossible task I feel.
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an Siarach
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#56
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(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
I'm guessing that England, despite its ancient history, is no longer regarded as a Celtic nation. I would be interested to see how the language, of what we now call English, develop had it not been for all those invasions. However, this will be an impossible task I feel.
The only thing that makes Scotland/Wales more Celtic than England is the fact there are still celtic populations in both countries - signficant in Wales and all but dead in Scotland. Personally i would consider the average englishman to have the same right to claim celtic heritage as any monoglot scotsman or welshman.
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NDGAARONDI
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#57
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(Original post by an Siarach)
Personally i would consider the average englishman to have the same right to claim celtic heritage as any monoglot scotsman or welshman.
Likewise.
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technik
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#58
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(Original post by yawn)
Reinstate the national language and you reinstate the nation.
if you're talking about wales, scotland, rep.ireland reinstating their gaelic languages as the primary language, that would cause significant problems on a world level if they only learnt english second. having english as a native language is a priceless asset, which is why just about everyone learns it
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yawn
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#59
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#59
(Original post by technik)
if you're talking about wales, scotland, rep.ireland reinstating their gaelic languages as the primary language, that would cause significant problems on a world level if they only learnt english second. having english as a native language is a priceless asset, which is why just about everyone learns it
In your opinion
frost105
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#60
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(Original post by yawn)
In your opinion
I would say that was in most peoples opinion. When a language hasnt been used in a country for more than 100 years then he should be taught and used as a second language.
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