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    (Original post by thecustardqueen)
    hi

    just thought i'd let u know that at oxford, u have to dissect ferrets/rats etc
    That seems to be more the preserve of the vets i think. Maybe Oxford is trying to make up for not having a vet school?!?
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    (Original post by Pollo Loco)
    Maybe Oxford is trying to make up for not having a vet school?!?
    or maybe we don't actually spend time dissecting ferrets & rats, as i outlined in my post before yours.. :rolleyes:
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    Thanks very much, thats really helpful. i was a little bit confused, are you saying that all the actual cutting up of the live tissue is done as a demonstration? or by a student? how regular is the work? is it only one or 2 sessions, or is it every week? your right, its not exactly what i wanted to hear, but the info is good to have

    Cheers.
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    (Original post by michaela_banana)
    Thanks very much, thats really helpful. i was a little bit confused, are you saying that all the actual cutting up of the live tissue is done as a demonstration? or by a student? how regular is the work? is it only one or 2 sessions, or is it every week? your right, its not exactly what i wanted to hear, but the info is good to have

    Cheers.
    OK, apologies for anyone slightly squeamish, as I'm going to have to explain in detail:
    First year Physiology - a couple of experiments where you are given a frog's leg, have to skin it and dissect out one of the muscles for use. Another experiment you are given a live, pithed frog and open the chest cavity and use its heart for experiments. Also there are one or two with guinea pig/rabbit intestines, where you're just given a piece of intestine - it's cut up by the demonstrators who are qualified in this.
    2nd year Pharmacology - more intestine experiments, plus one using a guinea pig heart which has again been pre-dissected.

    Attendance at practicals is compulsory, you wouldn't be able to get away with missing all of them I'm afraid and they are really useful. I hope this helps.
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    (Original post by michaela_banana)
    i was a little bit confused, are you saying that all the actual cutting up of the live tissue is done as a demonstration? or by a student?
    speaking for Oxford.. we use animal tissue/animals to illustrate pharmacological/physiological principles - rather than dissecting them for anatomical study.

    so as students we dissected frogs legs in the 1st year, to uncover muscles & nerves for a physiology practical on control of muscles and action potential nature.

    otherwise though, for the phamacology practicals, we just do the pharm. part i.e. administration of drugs onto tissues & wtaching the results. hence the equipment is all set up for us - i should imagine extracting ileum/the heart is quite tricky & time consuming unless you're well-practised!

    likewise, experiements on a pithed animal (i.e. spinal cord basically broken, so feels no pain) are all set up beforehand & we just administer drugs & monitor. experiments on anaesthetised animals are done as a demonstration - you need a Home Office License to do such things apparently.

    how regular is the work? is it only one or 2 sessions, or is it every week?
    again, this is Oxford.. but i think Camb. might be comparable? it's a pharmacology courses worth! we had maybe 6/7 practicals in the first year i think & 4 this year. so it's not exactly every week, but then it's not rare either.

    & your attendance & completion of practical books in manadatory to pass the course.

    your right, its not exactly what i wanted to hear, but the info is good to have
    can i just ask.. is this from a squeamish POV (in which case, Camb have a significant amount of human dissection, AFAIK) or based on 'animal rights'? i won't try & belittle whatever your views are.. (& don't want this to turn into a pro/cons thread..) but you might want to consider whether medicine is for you if you can't reconcile yourself with the idea of animal testing? i should imagine in your 3rd year research project animals will be used in some way (even if very indirectly!) - unless you do a library project, but then this will be based on animal studies, no doubt. likewise, any involvement in subsequent research/drug trials will have involved animals at some point.

    our course co-ordinator was very good though..we had a lecture on the merits of animal tetsing beforehand.. & any students who had concerns about it were welcome to make appointments to discuss them with him.

    hope this may help.

    PS - ah, Helenia got in there while i was typing my wordy reply! hopefully some of the points may be of interest anyway. :p:
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    (Original post by Elles)
    speaking for Oxford.. we use animal tissue/animals to illustrate pharmacological/physiological principles - rather than dissecting them for anatomical study.

    so as students we dissected frogs legs in the 1st year, to uncover muscles & nerves for a physiology practical on control of muscles and action potential nature.

    otherwise though, for the phamacology practicals, we just do the pharm. part i.e. administration of drugs onto tissues & wtaching the results. hence the equipment is all set up for us - i should imagine extracting ileum/the heart is quite tricky & time consuming unless you're well-practised!

    likewise, experiements on a pithed animal (i.e. spinal cord basically broken, so feels no pain) are all set up beforehand & we just administer drugs & monitor. experiments on anaesthetised animals are done as a demonstration - you need a Home Office License to do such things apparently.



    again, this is Oxford.. but i think Camb. might be comparable? it's a pharmacology courses worth! we had maybe 6/7 practicals in the first year i think & 4 this year. so it's not exactly every week, but then it's not rare either.

    & your attendance & completion of practical books in manadatory to pass the course.



    can i just ask.. is this from a squeamish POV (in which case, Camb have a significant amount of human dissection, AFAIK) or based on 'animal rights'? i won't try & belittle whatever your views are.. (& don't want this to turn into a pro/cons thread..) but you might want to consider whether medicine is for you if you can't reconcile yourself with the idea of animal testing? i should imagine in your 3rd year research project animals will be used in some way (even if very indirectly!) - unless you do a library project, but then this will be based on animal studies, no doubt. likewise, any involvement in subsequent research/drug trials will have involved animals at some point.

    our course co-ordinator was very good though..we had a lecture on the merits of animal tetsing beforehand.. & any students who had concerns about it were welcome to make appointments to discuss them with him.

    hope this may help.

    PS - ah, Helenia got in there while i was typing my wordy reply! hopefully some of the points may be of interest anyway. :p:
    Do Oxford not do significant human dissection then?

    Did all you medicine people watch Anatomy for Beginners on Channel 4 last week?
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    (Original post by ~Raphael~)
    Do Oxford not do significant human dissection then?
    nope.. we use prosection as our main anatomy teaching method.. sort of pre-dissected material - carried out by trainee surgeons.

    advantages of this - it's dissected well, so you can clearly see specific examples & focus on learning from observing etc., rather than preparing them yourself; saves time so anatomy teaching can include the other key aspects, like 'Living Anatomy' on each other & Imaging Anatomy practising MRI/X-ray interpretation etc. & fit everything else in!

    plus if you have a burning desire - you can do a dissection project or SSM.

    but i'm sure there are merits to doing dissection yourself, though doesn't especially appeal to me! :p:

    Did all you medicine people watch Anatomy for Beginners on Channel 4 last week?
    poor access to TV whilst in my Oxford bubble..
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    it is from an animal rights perspective. i do want to do medicine more than anything (i am aware that sounds quite immature but i mean it) but i can't agree with it ethically (personal choice, i do accept that currently it is the most technically and economically feasible method) therefore i couldn't do anything myself and especially not still alive. I have absolutely no objections with human dissection - that person has chosen to give up their body and died of natural causes. Sorry to go on, thought i should be clear.

    Your points about research projects are valid and not really something i have thought about, but reading about other peoples work is not a problem. I know that neither leicester nor newcastle use animals, but cambridge was my first choice. However i would rather stick with my principals than make myself a hypocrite.

    ps. I did watch anatomy for beginners. incredibly boring, you missed nothing. (2nd one was ok though)

    btw, this course co-ordinator bloke, did he offer a strategy for anyone not wanting to do it? (kind of clutching at straws here, would still rather go to oxbridge than elsewhere)
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    (Original post by ~Raphael~)
    Do Oxford not do significant human dissection then?

    Did all you medicine people watch Anatomy for Beginners on Channel 4 last week?
    We do full dissection, although some bits are prosected - but that's different from animal dissection as the people are a)dead and preserved and b)volunteered their bodies to Medicine. And like Elles, I have no TV, so I missed it

    Michaela, there really is little alternative. It's possible if you have an understanding lab partner that they will do the actual procedures for you (though they might get a bit tired of doing all the work) but you do absolutely have to be there. You have to have at least 80% attendance at practicals, and those involving animals make up more than 20%.
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    Obviously I'm not a medic so I apologise in advance if what I'm about to say sounds like cr*p to those of you with a modicum of knowledge, but I'm very interested in the ethical side of medicine, and I think doctors & nurses in general are just great people so I thought I'd just throw my 2p in...

    I understand your reserve regarding animal experimentation, but I don't think you'd be compromising your principles by taking part. If you want to be a doctor, you must be trained to recognise and contend with things to a very high level. Whether or not you agree with cutting up animals, if you're going to operate on me or my family, I'm going to insist that you know what you're doing, and if you screw up because you missed that lecture at med school for ethical reasons, goddammit, i'll sue the pants from under you!!

    Also, if you're going to be a good doctor, you have to learn to do what's required regardless of your principles. Whether or not you think Iain Brady is a sh*tbag or not, if he's on the table in front of you, you have to operate on him to the best of your ability, otherwise you'll lose your license.

    My (garbled) point is this: if you're going to be a good doctor, you have to do what needs done. If someone puts something infront of you and says "fix it" or "find out what the hell's doing this", you have to do exactly that, and whatever qualms you have are frankly irrelevant.
    If you strongly feel animal testing is wrong (and as it happens in principle I agree with you), then good for you, but you have to learn (a) whatever cutting up frogs teaches you, and (b) how to properly respond to doing horrible things.

    I realise the above is slightly disjointed and probably incomprehensible (i'm sick, tired and slightly hungover!!) so just ignore it if it sounds like b*llocks!!
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    i would have no qualms about attending the lecture, but would not want to do any work myself (for my own piece of mind above anything else). And don't get me wrong, if i felt that it was going to directly affect my ability to be a doctor that would be an influence, and is why i am trying to find out this information now, so i don't suffer the consequences in 18 months time. i am going to attend some open days at oxford and cambridge to get a better feel for it anyway, but i wouldn't compromise anything for it. (only last week my biology teacher said that i would still get an A whether or not i dissected the sheeps hearts she brought in). I'll now look at nottingham/bristol because i had discounted them before as i wanted to go to cambridge so much but didn't want a whole load of really competitive places on my list (this is becoming irrelevant.)

    we are having a medical ethics day at school next week and Mr. Chris Constant (who apparently teaches this at cambridge) will be there so i will ask him too.

    In fairness, what you have described as part of the work is less than i expected, and i will have to try and figure this one out.
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    (Original post by michaela_banana)
    ...but i can't agree with it ethically (personal choice, i do accept that currently it is the most technically and economically feasible method) therefore i couldn't do anything myself and especially not still alive.
    alive - but pithed/anaesthetised.. hence the animals feel no pain whatsoever. the medical school wouldn't have the license to do such experiements otherwise, especially because they're educational rather than research.

    Your points about research projects are valid and not really something i have thought about, but reading about other peoples work is not a problem. I know that neither leicester nor newcastle use animals, but cambridge was my first choice. However i would rather stick with my principals than make myself a hypocrite.
    informed decisions are good.. so hopefully we're helping here
    AFAIK, most medical schools don't use animals in teaching - but if you did any sort of research project intercalating anywhere, i should imagine animals are directly or indirectly used..

    for example - in pathology practicals - using sample blood or antibodies to practise clinical tests.. i should imagine all medical schools do these. & they use animal products, would you have ethical problems with that too?

    btw, this course co-ordinator bloke, did he offer a strategy for anyone not wanting to do it? (kind of clutching at straws here, would still rather go to oxbridge than elsewhere)
    i don't think it ever came to that - AFAIK some students just went & talked through their concerns with him.. he responded, they compromised that they would attend the first session & come back to see him. & i think they felt following the session that the use of animals was justified as a teaching tool.

    as Helenia says, our attendence is mandatory, we have to be there, fill in books & be signed of. it's possible you could just observe though..as you're typically in groups - i'm the computer operator person normally..i like putting neat labels on all the traces! :p:
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    regarding live animal experiments, if i remember correctly you're told at your first practical that if you have an issues, you can talk to one of the supervisors. i'm not sure what they do, but i'm sure you'll be able to find some sort of compromise. Also, you can most probably get away with not doing any of the handling yourself, especially if you get a really keen partner who would be delighted to do all the dissecting and stuff.

    as for the anatomy, its great. doing your own dissections is brilliant, if you screw up you can always go and look at someone elses. Doing it yourself gives you some sort of idea about what its like to cut flesh, and you gain some sort of basic handling skills.
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    Thanks, those were really positive comments. I think I will go too some open days and talk it through with some people, but I'm sure i could work around a lot of it. I appreciate the lack of pain in these frogs, but it just doesn't sit straight with me. I have been doing a lot of reading around this week. in fact I just recieved a pack from NAVS today (national anti-vivisection society) and they provided some interesting points, even without the biased scew, which opened up concerns i was having about 3rd year research projects (22 weeks at Nottingham....)

    I didn't realise about group work, and if its as beneficial as you make it out to be, then i'm sure someone could help me. Its not about making a point, and i hope nobody here takes it that way, i know its my opinion and i'm just trying to be informed.

    Just a quick point, Elles are you at Cambridge too or oxford?? (i agree about neat labels being fun too!!!) Plus dissection itself does sound really interesting, with a human dissection I would be very interested to experience things, normally i throw myself into work.

    Thanks everyone for the info, you are all shiny stars.
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    (Original post by michaela_banana)
    (only last week my biology teacher said that i would still get an A whether or not i dissected the sheeps hearts she brought in)
    I can understand why you are vaguely squicked by the idea of cutting up alive animals, but the sheep would have been slaughtered anyway. Are you veggie?

    I know that in the past the vet schools have had problems with veggies - meaning no offence - refusing to do parts of the course ie all vet students have to spend a week in a slaughterhouse and people started to refuse, so they couldn't qualify. Admitted, slaughterhouses are kinda weird - blood up wall etc like a horror film only with sheep.

    Really, I don't see what the problme is. After all, they are only animals (hehe, doesn't it scare you that I was the best veterinary candidate Clare could find? )
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    (Original post by michaela_banana)

    Just a quick point, Elles are you at Cambridge too or oxford?? (i agree about neat labels being fun too!!!)..

    Thanks everyone for the info, you are all shiny stars.
    i'm Oxford, yes.. said that in post 37 i think, when i first posted to clarify - because i hadn't realised helenia had just given the official cambridge word & i was just trying to be helpful because i thought the schools use of animals would be fairly similar - which it seems to be, albeit with species variation! :p:

    we don't do human dissection though.. i outlined our anatomy teaching elsewhere in this thread.

    anyway, any Oxford medicine Qs, feel free to ask me.
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    (Original post by DanMushMan)
    1st ever? very good. i think i went to 2 in the first term, then it started clashing with football and sleep.

    GKT, St George's and Addies.
    GKT - I would like to go there quite a lot, it looks fantastic. Problem is, I don't think they'll be too impressed with my aptitude at resits. I've got a friend there from my school, who's doing an intercalated year, so we'd be in the same clinical year, and we would be on the same firm, and have agreed to share a flat etc. So, yeah, lets see how that interview goes (though i'm not holding my breath, and its quite possible i won't even get one).

    St George's - solid second choice for me, i think. Few goof friends there from my old school, 2 of my best there. the friend from GKT seems to spend a lot of time there. Applicants:Places ration for last year was 5:8 I'm hoping they allow pretty much anyone is. Great clinical school, really not great area.

    Addies - no way am I getting in if I put them third. Had to put somewhere....
    you have pretty solid chance with GKT.
    Addies is cack for clinicals. Trust me
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    (Original post by michaela_banana)
    it is from an animal rights perspective. i do want to do medicine more than anything (i am aware that sounds quite immature but i mean it) but i can't agree with it ethically (personal choice, i do accept that currently it is the most technically and economically feasible method) therefore i couldn't do anything myself and especially not still alive. I have absolutely no objections with human dissection - that person has chosen to give up their body and died of natural causes. Sorry to go on, thought i should be clear.

    Your points about research projects are valid and not really something i have thought about, but reading about other peoples work is not a problem. I know that neither leicester nor newcastle use animals, but cambridge was my first choice. However i would rather stick with my principals than make myself a hypocrite.

    ps. I did watch anatomy for beginners. incredibly boring, you missed nothing. (2nd one was ok though)

    btw, this course co-ordinator bloke, did he offer a strategy for anyone not wanting to do it? (kind of clutching at straws here, would still rather go to oxbridge than elsewhere)
    damned hippies
    You'll lvoe cambridge. blooming weekly animal demos with lots of smelly hippies screaming at you about stuff they don't understand

    When push comes to shove i always give the same reply. "you think we LIKE faffing about with animals?"

    Funny thing was i was pretty much on the fence till i had 3 years of harrassment by damned anti-vivesectionists. Now I'm very much pro.
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    (Original post by michaela_banana)
    i would have no qualms about attending the lecture, but would not want to do any work myself (for my own piece of mind above anything else). And don't get me wrong, if i felt that it was going to directly affect my ability to be a doctor that would be an influence, and is why i am trying to find out this information now, so i don't suffer the consequences in 18 months time. i am going to attend some open days at oxford and cambridge to get a better feel for it anyway, but i wouldn't compromise anything for it. (only last week my biology teacher said that i would still get an A whether or not i dissected the sheeps hearts she brought in). I'll now look at nottingham/bristol because i had discounted them before as i wanted to go to cambridge so much but didn't want a whole load of really competitive places on my list (this is becoming irrelevant.)

    we are having a medical ethics day at school next week and Mr. Chris Constant (who apparently teaches this at cambridge) will be there so i will ask him too.

    In fairness, what you have described as part of the work is less than i expected, and i will have to try and figure this one out.
    in my first year some girl took the same stance (though she made the faux paux of being both loud, and arsey about it) and said she was refusing to touch any of the animal stuff. THe head guy to get the hell out of his room and to come back when she had got some common sense
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    OK, apologies for anyone slightly squeamish, as I'm going to have to explain in detail:
    First year Physiology - a couple of experiments where you are given a frog's leg, have to skin it and dissect out one of the muscles for use. Another experiment you are given a live, pithed frog and open the chest cavity and use its heart for experiments. Also there are one or two with guinea pig/rabbit intestines, where you're just given a piece of intestine - it's cut up by the demonstrators who are qualified in this.
    2nd year Pharmacology - more intestine experiments, plus one using a guinea pig heart which has again been pre-dissected.

    Attendance at practicals is compulsory, you wouldn't be able to get away with missing all of them I'm afraid and they are really useful. I hope this helps.

    hiya

    just wondrin...do the exams that count towards your final degree then ONLY comprise of written exams, no assessed practicals??
 
 
 
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