Your thoughts on Dr Seuss and racism?

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Starship Trooper
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Calibrated.)
A private company opting not to publish something it owns the rights to is not censorship. We live in strange times when so many on the right seem to want to wage war on the free market and the right of companies/individuals to decide what they do with things they own.

There was a time when the white man ruled the world. Now, some of their weaker descendants spend their time having histrionic outbursts on the internet.
Self censorship is still censorship. I am glad that many on the right have realised there is more to life than the reckless pursuit of capital. I'm not surprised that so many on the left have eagerly become the new standard bearers of the woke billionaire class.

My ancestors smile upon me, can you say the same?
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DiddyDec
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#22
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(Original post by -Imperator-)
Doesn't it seem reasonable to pull children's books with racist caricatures?
How about just don't read it or buy it if you don't want to, why must it be removed?
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QE2
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/enter...-arts-56250658

I think 'anti racist' people should just be honest and say they just want get rid of every book and film made by white people up until 2010.

Maybe they can organise community book burnings so people can use social media to #BurnWhiteSupremacy, featuring your favourite celebrities.

Anyone who complains can get fired from their job and get publicly attacked and doxxed because it's 2021 and there's no safe spaces for 'racism'

(I was actually betting money that they would go after Tolkien next but I suppose that'll come later )
Soon we won't even be able to shout "******!" at people in the street.
It's Political Correctness Gone Maaad, I tell you!
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-Imperator-
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#24
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#24
(Original post by DiddyDec)
How about just don't read it or buy it if you don't want to, why must it be removed?
What? Do you think people know the content of books before they buy them or let their children read them at the library? Can you not think of any reason to limit access to books which depict other races as subhuman? Would you have the same attitude towards Nazi propaganda?
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SHallowvale
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#25
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#25
(Original post by QE2)
Soon we won't even be able to shout "******!" at people in the street.
It's Political Correctness Gone Maaad, I tell you!
All I want to do is write racial sluts, in excrement, on people's cars. But the politically correct brigade...
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DiddyDec
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#26
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(Original post by -Imperator-)
What? Do you think people know the content of books before they buy them or let their children read them at the library? Can you not think of any reason to limit access to books which depict other races as subhuman? Would you have the same attitude towards Nazi propaganda?
Dr. Seuss doesn't portray anyone has subhuman, just dated caricatures. I would expect parents to take responsibility and at least do a cursory look at a book before purchasing it especially older books which may contain outdated depictions or phrases that may not be entirely appropriate these days.

I could buy a copy of Mein Kampf right now, I don't have a problem with that.

My post on the other thread on this same topic.

(Original post by DiddyDec)
I am against the censorship of classic literature, removing them from publication will not achieve anything other than removing literature from the world.
Those books are more than just literature though, they are incredible works of art.

People should be free to choose what they do or don't to read not be told what is approved or not. If were to remove every publication with something potentially offensive in it we would live in a much more close minded society.
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SHallowvale
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#27
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Dr. Seuss doesn't portray anyone has subhuman, just dated caricatures. I would expect parents to take responsibility and at least do a cursory look at a book before purchasing it especially older books which may contain outdated depictions or phrases that may not be entirely appropriate these days.

I could buy a copy of Mein Kampf right now, I don't have a problem with that.

My post on the other thread on this same topic.
Parents may not take that responsibility, or perhaps might not even know that these books contain such caricatures. Before reading this story I wouldn't have known that some of Seuss' books contain them.

I can understand the value of maintaining classic literature / artwork as it was originally presented. Clearly you can appreciate old racist work if you understand that it's just of it's time, but the target audience of these books (children) aren't going to understand the nuance of that.
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-Imperator-
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#28
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#28
(Original post by DiddyDec)
Dr. Seuss doesn't portray anyone has subhuman, just dated caricatures.
There are numerous Dr. Seuss cartoons depicting the japanese as insects. These are not "dated caricatures". There's something hilarious to me about condemning a publisher for refusing to publish racist cartoons any longer. What are we being deprived of?

(Original post by DiddyDec)
I would expect parents to take responsibility and at least do a cursory look at a book before purchasing it especially older books which may contain outdated depictions or phrases that may not be entirely appropriate these days.
I take it that you yourself are not a parent? Yes, we could have a system in which parents have to meticulously look through every book they wish to buy in order to be sure they are free of racist cartoons (ruling out ordering new books on the internet, for example) - or, we could just have responsible publishers who we can trust to not publish such things.

(Original post by DiddyDec)
I could buy a copy of Mein Kampf right now, I don't have a problem with that.
Would you have a problem with the distribution of bomb-making manuals?
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DiddyDec
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#29
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Parents may not take that responsibility, or perhaps might not even know that these books contain such caricatures. Before reading this story I wouldn't have known that some of Seuss' books contain them.

I can understand the value of maintaining classic literature / artwork as it was originally presented. Clearly you can appreciate old racist work if you understand that it's just of it's time, but the target audience of these books (children) aren't going to understand the nuance of that.
Every single one of those books I had as a child, I loved them because they were great books with compelling stories and beautiful art. Did I grow up thinking all Russians were bearded Cossacks or Indians must wear turbans? No because they were not read in isolation nor were they works other than fiction. It also didn't lead me to believe that there were birds with 30 foot long neck that took a month to swallow nor an animal called the Scraggle-Foot Mulligatawny.
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SHallowvale
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#30
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Every single one of those books I had as a child, I loved them because they were great books with compelling stories and beautiful art. Did I grow up thinking all Russians were bearded Cossacks or Indians must wear turbans? No because they were not read in isolation nor were they works other than fiction. It also didn't lead me to believe that there were birds with 30 foot long neck that took a month to swallow nor an animal called the Scraggle-Foot Mulligatawny.
I presume you think that racist caricatures are wrong, right?
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I presume you think that racist caricatures are wrong, right?
Yes.
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DiddyDec
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#32
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#32
(Original post by -Imperator-)
There are numerous Dr. Seuss cartoons depicting the japanese as insects. These are not "dated caricatures". There's something hilarious to me about condemning a publisher for refusing to publish racist cartoons any longer. What are we being deprived of?

I take it that you yourself are not a parent? Yes, we could have a system in which parents have to meticulously look through every book they wish to buy in order to be sure they are free of racist cartoons (ruling out ordering new books on the internet, for example) - or, we could just have responsible publishers who we can trust to not publish such things.

Would you have a problem with the distribution of bomb-making manuals?
Those cartoons need to be taken in context since they were not his works for children. They were at the height of the Second World War when the US were fighting Japan, they are essentially war propaganda and should be viewed as such. Interesting to note that after the war he wrote "Hortons Hears A Who" as an allegory for the American occupation of Japan and dedicates it to his Japanese friend. Context matters.

We are being deprived of beautiful works of art which could be used as a teaching tool to help children understand what has come before and how we can do better moving forward. If I could have children I would still read them the banned books because they are still brilliant books with excellent moral lessons which are not thrust in your face.

Bomb making manuals are easy to come by if you are looking for them, I wouldn't have a problem with them being sold online because at least then you can track who is reading them.
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Ascend
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Meanwhile, Dr. Seuss book sales soar and a lucrative market for the cancelled books has been created. :laugh:

You'd think leftist censors would have learned a thing or two from autocrats and theocrats who've also fallen into the Streisand effect trap.

Now, is Dr. Seuss an exception or are we going to logically dig through and ban every "problematic" works still in publication?

What's also funny about this is right-wingers hurrying to an ultra liberal progressive's corner.

Gotta love the follies of the privileged first world.
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Starship Trooper
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Ascend)
What's also funny about this is right-wingers hurrying to an ultra liberal progressive's corner.
Censorship, even of people you disagree with ultimately harms everyone.

I disagree with lots of people on here but I believe they should have the right to speak freely. Even QE2 🤣
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Yes.
Okay, do you think that it would be wrong for childrens books that I written today to feature racist caricatures?
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Ascend
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An interesting highlight from the Southern Poverty Law Center that draws out the sjw vs. liberal conceptions of racial equality:

https://www.learningforjustice.org/m...about-dr-seuss

The solution to the story’s conflict is that the Plain-Belly Sneetches and Star-Bellied Sneetches simply get confused as to who is oppressed. As a result, they accept one another. This message of “acceptance” does not acknowledge structural power imbalances. It doesn’t address the idea that historical narratives impact present-day power structures. And instead of encouraging young readers to recognize and take action against injustice, the story promotes a race-neutral approach.
The ideal of race neutrality is dying. The end goal is always more racialisation.
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SHallowvale
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#37
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(Original post by Ascend)
Meanwhile, Dr. Seuss book sales soar and a lucrative market for the cancelled books has been created. :laugh:

You'd think leftist censors would have learned a thing or two from autocrats and theocrats who've also fallen into the Streisand effect trap.

Now, is Dr. Seuss an exception or are we going to logically dig through and ban every "problematic" works still in publication?

What's also funny about this is right-wingers hurrying to an ultra liberal progressive's corner.

Gotta love the follies of the privileged first world.
The usage of the word "ban" here is a little odd. I wouldn't think of it as "banning" a book if a publisher, which owns the rights of the book, simply doesn't want to sell it anymore.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Ascend)
Now, is Dr. Seuss an exception or are we going to logically dig through and ban every "problematic" works still in publication?
Better start burning your copies of Shakespeare.
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Ascend
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#39
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
The usage of the word "ban" here is a little odd. I wouldn't think of it as "banning" a book if a publisher, which owns the rights of the book, simply doesn't want to sell it anymore.
In light of the current woke zeitgeist and its successful pressure campaigns, I'd say the term is accurate. It's like saying someone like Donald McNeil simply resigned (cancelled himself) and was not fired
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Okay, do you think that it would be wrong for childrens books that I written today to feature racist caricatures?
Depends on the context, if they were being used as a tool to offend then yes. But if they are being used as a means of teaching about the past then no.
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