Harvard word count
I submitted an assignment and got 73%. I had to use Harvard and read here and in other unis advice that in text citations are not included in the word count. My word count was correct for this. I included a cover note saying in-text citations not counted. The market ignored this and deducted 7% of the marks. Then a week later deducted another 7% for a paragraph spacing being different to their requirement. So 14% deducted from a first class research report, for a correct word count, and spaces. Are in-text citations counted in Harvard word counts or not please? And is a marker allowed to drop an assignment from a first to a 2.1, (14%), for this very minor and unclear requirement? I complained but the marker didn’t answer my questions at all. Clearly values empty spaces more than academic excellence. Any replies/ knowledge welcome.
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In text have always been included in word counts for my assignments using Harvard ref, yes and I my modules going over word count is a 10%dock-or they stop reading when the word count hits so you get no marks for anything after. Depends on the module/institution.
Presumably your formatting would have been something you were told to follow and if it wasn’t followed that would allow them to deduct marks from that also, yes.
Presumably your formatting would have been something you were told to follow and if it wasn’t followed that would allow them to deduct marks from that also, yes.
(edited 3 years ago)
It depends on the institution. I worked at one where it was not, one where it was, and I am at one now where it is counted. The lesson is really to check the spec sheet or ask. The reason for these discrepancies between institutions is that there is not a single, standardised 'Harvard style', but instead several competing types (and sonetimes institution-specific variations).
Last place I worked docked marks severely for going over, and the place where I am now is even harsher - so my guess is yes, 7% is appropriate in the circumstances.
As for the formatting, it seems a bit harsh but at the same time only slightly. I wouldn't expect more than 5 marks off for a poorly formatted paper unless it was pure chaos on screen. So it is probably within your institution's guidelines.
Last place I worked docked marks severely for going over, and the place where I am now is even harsher - so my guess is yes, 7% is appropriate in the circumstances.
As for the formatting, it seems a bit harsh but at the same time only slightly. I wouldn't expect more than 5 marks off for a poorly formatted paper unless it was pure chaos on screen. So it is probably within your institution's guidelines.
(edited 3 years ago)
As above, your department or uni as a whole will usually give guidelines on what counts towards your word count, and what the deductions may be for going over (if any). Your module assessment information should give details on any specific formats required, and otherwise you should follow whatever the departmental formatting guidelines are (which will usually also be published alongside details about word counts and so on). It is worth checking for the formal guidelines (as if they do differ from what you were penalised for, you could appeal on that basis; make sure to check both departmental/university wide guidelines as well as any guidance in the module itself and for the particular piece of assessment submitted though, as the latter could override the former) to know for certain, and also to see if there is any leeway in word count (some of the unis I've studied at allow you up to 10% over the word count, whereas others strictly stop at the word count indicated). Although it was an unfortunate way for you to discover this, at least you know now for future reference.
Everywhere I've studied has included in-text citations in the word count (i.e. Harvard style referencing), though. The only things normally excluded from word counts in my experience are title pages and abstracts, footnotes, tables and figures, bibliographies/reference lists, and appendices (which are not strictly marked or read normally). Everything else counts usually (captions for tables and figures is a bit more variable); even if you type "word count: x" at the start of your assignment, but not as part of the title page, that usually counts as three words in my experience! It's best to assume things count towards your word limit unless it's specifically and unambiguously stated in the assessment criteria that something doesn't count. Formatting as above is really a matter of figuring out the standard format for your department and then following that unless specific guidance is given otherwise (which may sometimes be the case, e.g. if they want you to submit an academic journal style article that follows the style guide of a journal in your field).
I have been lucky however as I've not known anywhere to specifically penalise you for such things (also most of the unis I've studied with have allowed up to 10% over the word limit as well). My own experience has been if you are over the word count, the marker is not obliged to read or mark anything beyond the word limit, and formatting is really more a matter of convention than marking unless it is part of what is being assessed (such as the above example of a journal style article, which was a specific assignment I had once with marks specifically allocated for following the style guide for the journal in question!). But evidently it does vary between unis so it's important to find out what is the case for your uni/department/course/module!
Everywhere I've studied has included in-text citations in the word count (i.e. Harvard style referencing), though. The only things normally excluded from word counts in my experience are title pages and abstracts, footnotes, tables and figures, bibliographies/reference lists, and appendices (which are not strictly marked or read normally). Everything else counts usually (captions for tables and figures is a bit more variable); even if you type "word count: x" at the start of your assignment, but not as part of the title page, that usually counts as three words in my experience! It's best to assume things count towards your word limit unless it's specifically and unambiguously stated in the assessment criteria that something doesn't count. Formatting as above is really a matter of figuring out the standard format for your department and then following that unless specific guidance is given otherwise (which may sometimes be the case, e.g. if they want you to submit an academic journal style article that follows the style guide of a journal in your field).
I have been lucky however as I've not known anywhere to specifically penalise you for such things (also most of the unis I've studied with have allowed up to 10% over the word limit as well). My own experience has been if you are over the word count, the marker is not obliged to read or mark anything beyond the word limit, and formatting is really more a matter of convention than marking unless it is part of what is being assessed (such as the above example of a journal style article, which was a specific assignment I had once with marks specifically allocated for following the style guide for the journal in question!). But evidently it does vary between unis so it's important to find out what is the case for your uni/department/course/module!
(edited 3 years ago)
I have not come across the idea that in-text citations do not count towards the final word count. I had always assumed that they did. Otherwise, it would be near impossible, or at least, very messy, to do a word count. Even if you were to count the words manually and state the total on your paper, how do you expect the marker to verify this without doing the same? That said, you would need to check your university's regulation concerning this, and not rely on other universities' regulations or what others may have said here. Also, does your university specify a particular style of referencing? If allowed, you might want to switch from in-text citations to footnote referencing style (MHRA) if the in-text citations put your work over the word limit by a substantial margin. It is usual for marks to be deducted for running over the word limit, and the procedure for this should be stated in your module handbook/study guide.
With regards the formatting, most universities usually ask for double spacing for easier reading by the marker. While a deduction of 7% may seem overly harsh, part of the rationale may be to penalise your inability or unwillingness to follow simple formatting instructions. You may have grounds for appeal if your university's regulations allow this, or if it wasn't made clear that you must use double spacing. But first, I think you should take the matter up with the marker/module leader, then with your personal tutor and finally ask for advice from your student union if you still feel unsatisfied.
With regards the formatting, most universities usually ask for double spacing for easier reading by the marker. While a deduction of 7% may seem overly harsh, part of the rationale may be to penalise your inability or unwillingness to follow simple formatting instructions. You may have grounds for appeal if your university's regulations allow this, or if it wasn't made clear that you must use double spacing. But first, I think you should take the matter up with the marker/module leader, then with your personal tutor and finally ask for advice from your student union if you still feel unsatisfied.
Original post by gjd800
Odds of appeal for academic judgements are tiny. Just take it on the chin and toe the line next time.
Original post by gjd800
It depends on the institution. I worked at one where it was not, one where it was, and I am at one now where it is counted. The lesson is really to check the spec sheet or ask. The reason for these discrepancies between institutions is that there is not a single, standardised 'Harvard style', but instead several competing types (and sonetimes institution-specific variations).
Last place I worked docked marks severely for going over, and the place where I am now is even harsher - so my guess is yes, 7% is appropriate in the circumstances.
As for the formatting, it seems a bit harsh but at the same time only slightly. I wouldn't expect more than 5 marks off for a poorly formatted paper unless it was pure chaos on screen. So it is probably within your institution's guidelines.
Last place I worked docked marks severely for going over, and the place where I am now is even harsher - so my guess is yes, 7% is appropriate in the circumstances.
As for the formatting, it seems a bit harsh but at the same time only slightly. I wouldn't expect more than 5 marks off for a poorly formatted paper unless it was pure chaos on screen. So it is probably within your institution's guidelines.
Thank you for your insights. I submitted this on behalf of a student- I’ve lectured in unis; hence my shock at 14% deduction of marks. As you note, Harvard word count ‘rules’ are quoted differently (see 3 answers to a different question on this site stating in-text citations are mot counted- eg 2396433). This ambiguity when the uni requires Harvard is problematic. If not included it was in the word count- no deduction should be applied. Regards spacing it was entirely regular- as above; “ a matter if convention” and “not part of what is being assessed “. So removing another 7% for properly formatted empty space, seems, as noted above “seems harsh” and is nothing to do with the excellent content. Again no standard. As formatting penalties are not academic judgement, but fair and equal application of penalties, and unfairness is grounds for appeal, as is dropping a students marks by 14% from a first to a second class degree for this. As noted here and elsewhere, this apparently unfounded penalty marking hasn’t been found in any other students or lecturers experiences; bearing in mind it was well formatted, a 73% (plus).
Also a bit confusing because in the first post you claim the formatting was not done according to 'requirements' (important word), but now you say they don't assess that specific thing. Maybe they don't, but this does not tally with my experience of various academic setting, and if it was not to be assessed then my instinct is that the mark deduction for it would not pass moderation.
In my experience, this case would almost certainly be looked at by moderators because deductions have shifted the class.
Given that you have been faculty, it is surprising to me that you are 'shocked' by what on the surface of things seem like broadly justifiable deducations.
But by all means try your luck. Just don't get any hopes up.
In my experience, this case would almost certainly be looked at by moderators because deductions have shifted the class.
Given that you have been faculty, it is surprising to me that you are 'shocked' by what on the surface of things seem like broadly justifiable deducations.
But by all means try your luck. Just don't get any hopes up.
Original post by nurabdullah
Thank you for your insights. I submitted this on behalf of a student- I’ve lectured in unis; hence my shock at 14% deduction of marks. As you note, Harvard word count ‘rules’ are quoted differently (see 3 answers to a different question on this site stating in-text citations are mot counted- eg 2396433). This ambiguity when the uni requires Harvard is problematic. If not included it was in the word count- no deduction should be applied. Regards spacing it was entirely regular- as above; “ a matter if convention” and “not part of what is being assessed “. So removing another 7% for properly formatted empty space, seems, as noted above “seems harsh” and is nothing to do with the excellent content. Again no standard. As formatting penalties are not academic judgement, but fair and equal application of penalties, and unfairness is grounds for appeal, as is dropping a students marks by 14% from a first to a second class degree for this. As noted here and elsewhere, this apparently unfounded penalty marking hasn’t been found in any other students or lecturers experiences; bearing in mind it was well formatted, a 73% (plus).
The “standard” you keep talking about is the assessment guidelines for that particular module or degree and it is in the student to know what these are and to follow them. It doesn’t matter what other institutions have done-as you can see by the replies all have correct procedures and penalties if they’re not followed.
The word count “ambiguity” only comes when you ask people for the rules of their institutions. It is on the student to follow the rules for their own and not what other people might say.
If the assessment guidelines specifically for your module/course indicate differently then perhaps there is grounds for appeal but it is up to the student to know and follow these guidelines so if this has not been followed then no grounds for appeal. Thinking the guidelines are “unfair” is not grounds for appeal.
And all of the replies mention deductions for formatting and for going over the word count so I’m not entirely sure what you’re last statement is based on.
And if you’re the teacher/tutor you ought to know this. (And why you initially posted as though you’re the student is bizarre)
And if you’re the student then it’s your place to find it out.
(edited 3 years ago)
The penalty for not double spacing seems ott. I know I can set up the format correctly and then you spot one paragraph where for sone reason it’s failed (maybe you pasted in a few words which screws up formatting)
So you keep having to redo the whole document to ensure it stays same font etc.
Footnotes always count for us, but not bibliographies. Else you could include tons of stuff in footnotes that should be in your essay body.
So you keep having to redo the whole document to ensure it stays same font etc.
Footnotes always count for us, but not bibliographies. Else you could include tons of stuff in footnotes that should be in your essay body.
Original post by Catherine1973
The penalty for not double spacing seems ott. I know I can set up the format correctly and then you spot one paragraph where for sone reason it’s failed (maybe you pasted in a few words which screws up formatting)
So you keep having to redo the whole document to ensure it stays same font etc.
Footnotes always count for us, but not bibliographies. Else you could include tons of stuff in footnotes that should be in your essay body.
So you keep having to redo the whole document to ensure it stays same font etc.
Footnotes always count for us, but not bibliographies. Else you could include tons of stuff in footnotes that should be in your essay body.
Footnotes to explain certain terms or to put things in their proper contexts are usually counted, but footnote references, where they contain nothing but bibliographical information are not usually part of the word count. Of course, each institution may have different regulations on this, and students must follow these regulations and seek clarification if they are not sure.
Original post by chaotic1328
Footnotes to explain certain terms or to put things in their proper contexts are usually counted, but footnote references, where they contain nothing but bibliographical information are not usually part of the word count. Of course, each institution may have different regulations on this, and students must follow these regulations and seek clarification if they are not sure.
Footnote references are not Harvard style.
Original post by gjd800
Footnote references are not Harvard style.
Lol, do you want a cookie for your comment, Einstein? Please follow the thread to ensure that you take comments in the correct context. For someone who claims to be an academic, or an ex-acadmric, you seem to have a remarkable lack of reading comprehension.
I have stated clearly in my original comment that footnote references are usually from the MHRA referencing system, and not normally considered part of the word count. Someone then commented that footnotes are usually counted towards the count to stop people exceeding the word limit by the backdoor. I then responded by saying that footnotes that contain only bibliographical information are not usually counted, though individual institutions may have different policies. What gave you the impression that I stated that footnote references are based on the Harvard system? Also, what were you trying to achieve with your 'my mother is a woman' comment?
Original post by chaotic1328
Lol, do you want a cookie for your comment, Einstein? Please follow the thread to ensure that you take comments in the correct context. For someone who claims to be an academic, or an ex-acadmric, you seem to have a remarkable lack of reading comprehension.
I have stated clearly in my original comment that footnote references are usually from the MHRA referencing system, and not normally considered part of the word count. Someone then commented that footnotes are usually counted towards the count to stop people exceeding the word limit by the backdoor. I then responded by saying that footnotes that contain only bibliographical information are not usually counted, though individual institutions may have different policies. What gave you the impression that I stated that footnote references are based on the Harvard system? Also, what were you trying to achieve with your 'my mother is a woman' comment?
I have stated clearly in my original comment that footnote references are usually from the MHRA referencing system, and not normally considered part of the word count. Someone then commented that footnotes are usually counted towards the count to stop people exceeding the word limit by the backdoor. I then responded by saying that footnotes that contain only bibliographical information are not usually counted, though individual institutions may have different policies. What gave you the impression that I stated that footnote references are based on the Harvard system? Also, what were you trying to achieve with your 'my mother is a woman' comment?
The thread is specifically about a Harvard style and so your discussion is peripheral at best
Do you need to take a Mogadon? rolled out the wrong side of the bed, narky
Original post by gjd800
The thread is specifically about a Harvard style and so your discussion is peripheral at best
Do you need to take a Mogadon? rolled out the wrong side of the bed, narky
Do you need to take a Mogadon? rolled out the wrong side of the bed, narky
I am sorry if I don't tolerate people who likes to state the obvious too well. Or those who comment in a public forum without following the context. Maybe you really ought to look at yourself more often.
How is proposing an alternative referencing style to save on the word count peripheral at best? A possible problem with the Harvard style is that it can use up a large part of the word count if there are large number of citations. It can also sometimes make the sentence structure clumsy. As this thread is about the Harvard style and word count, I would say that mentioning an alternative to mitigate the problem is very much relevant.
Original post by chaotic1328
I am sorry if I don't tolerate people who likes to state the obvious too well. Or those who comment in a public forum without following the context. Maybe you really ought to look at yourself more often.
How is proposing an alternative referencing style to save on the word count peripheral at best? A possible problem with the Harvard style is that it can use up a large part of the word count if there are large number of citations. It can also sometimes make the sentence structure clumsy. As this thread is about the Harvard style and word count, I would say that mentioning an alternative to mitigate the problem is very much relevant.
How is proposing an alternative referencing style to save on the word count peripheral at best? A possible problem with the Harvard style is that it can use up a large part of the word count if there are large number of citations. It can also sometimes make the sentence structure clumsy. As this thread is about the Harvard style and word count, I would say that mentioning an alternative to mitigate the problem is very much relevant.
Because they have been directed to use the Harvard style.
Original post by chaotic1328
I am sorry if I don't tolerate people who likes to state the obvious too well. Or those who comment in a public forum without following the context. Maybe you really ought to look at yourself more often.
How is proposing an alternative referencing style to save on the word count peripheral at best? A possible problem with the Harvard style is that it can use up a large part of the word count if there are large number of citations. It can also sometimes make the sentence structure clumsy. As this thread is about the Harvard style and word count, I would say that mentioning an alternative to mitigate the problem is very much relevant.
How is proposing an alternative referencing style to save on the word count peripheral at best? A possible problem with the Harvard style is that it can use up a large part of the word count if there are large number of citations. It can also sometimes make the sentence structure clumsy. As this thread is about the Harvard style and word count, I would say that mentioning an alternative to mitigate the problem is very much relevant.
Because the whole point of the thread is someone being penalised for not following their modules guidelines- there isn’t an option to use other referencing styles so it is beside the point and derailing the thread to anyone else who comes in and thinks that it’s a discussion of referencing methods and how they can “do better”
Original post by GabiAbi84
Because the whole point of the thread is someone being penalised for not following their modules guidelines- there isn’t an option to use other referencing styles so it is beside the point and derailing the thread to anyone else who comes in and thinks that it’s a discussion of referencing methods and how they can “do better”
Quite - thank you.
Original post by gjd800
Because they have been directed to use the Harvard style.
Where dors the the OP said that. He merely stated that 'I had to use Harvard', without saying anything that it was a course requirement. The reason why the OP 'had to use Harvard' could be many, why do you assume that it is based on the course requirement? One possible reason may be that the OP is more familiar with the style, or was only taught that style.
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