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Women only scholarships.

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Labour used All-Women shortlists to select parliamentary candidates in 1997 until someone complained and it was ruled illegal, but they put something through in 2008(?) to allow this sort of thing so I think they’re allowed if the representation of women in that sector is low.
(edited 3 years ago)
The GMC statistics show that in 2017, 53% of doctors were male so what's your source
Original post by DarthRoar
They are replicable to a limited extent. The confusion arises from the fact that they are actually looking at relative enrolment rates onto STEM university courses, rather than the share overall. The authors continue to defend their analysis, and the paper has not been retracted by the journal as the editors do not believe that their analysis has been shown to be fundamentally in error.

I'm happy to consider the evidence you mention.

There is literally a wikipedia page on it. How many journal articles do you know of which have a wikipedia page which is pretty much solely for their controversy?

It hasn't be retracted because it is so impactfully wrong that it is better to keep it up with corrections than retract it. For context it is rare to see a correction which is more than a couple of sentences before it gets retracted, whereas the corrections for this paper are literally pages. That doesn't happen unless it's in the greater public interest.
Original post by Helloworld_95
And you're not being disadvantaged as a man because you're not eligible for a certain scholarship, you are the baseline.

I wholeheartedly agree :yep:

There's the argument of 'what if the roles were reversed?' - but they aren't reversed. The fact is that women aren't encouraged to do STEM as much as men do, there's a lack of role models within the industry and it's well-known to be a difficult environment for women, whose opinions and knowledge aren't respected.

Women-only scholarships are designed to encourage women to get into STEM, give them more of an active choice. If men were oppressed, they would be treated as such, and I stand by that. Sure, there may be 'biological differences' as to why less women might not want to partake in STEM, but this shouldn't mean they should be denied the choice because of their socialisation.
It's not about just outnumbering, it's about severely outnumbering in both the subject and profession, and you can see that from your source.

The rate of female medical students is just 2% higher than university students in general, which is within an acceptable margin. The unequal rates of male and female university attendance are something that is being addressed already, although this is more likely to be linked with the institutional failures which result in men being more likely to go into certain subjects which also happen to have lots of apprenticeships e.g. engineering.
This is only doctors - it certainly doesn't speak for the STEM industry as a whole.

According to Stem Graduates, 15% of Engineering graduates are female. The percentage of women in STEM for technology and mathematics are 19% for Computer Studies and 38% for Maths. 13% of the overall UK STEM workforce are women.

Source - https://www.stemgraduates.co.uk/women-in-stem#:~:text=Background%20and%20Women%20in%20STEM,Studies%20and%2038%25%20for%20Maths.
"Data from the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service show that across the UK 59.0% of those accepted to medical school in 2017 were women, compared with 56.7% of those accepted across all subjects."

Right below what you quoted.

The gender ratios within different medical fields is also something that they're working towards improving.
This is a fair point. However, arguably the highest-ranking, most well-paid jobs are already in men's favour. Sure, a man might find it harder to be a nanny, or a PE teacher at a girl's school. But there's no denying that the real inequalities lie in the best paid jobs - CEO's are around 90% men*.

It's hardly comparable, and the male claim for oppression seems to be far more reaching than women's.


*source - https://www.statista.com/statistics/685208/number-of-female-ceo-positions-in-ftse-companies-uk/
Reply 28
probably, women are given every advantage in the UK and men are tossed in the trash like an old dog
It's 2% compared to expected, 2.3% if you want to be pedantic. You need to compare it to the overall situation for attending university, not just the subject ratio because there are shared causes.

And as I said there is already an effort to improve the number of men going to university, but also a large part of the reason for fewer men going to university is the same reason why there are women only scholarships.
(edited 3 years ago)
of course, but it doesn't discredit my point.
Original post by parmezanne
This is a fair point. However, arguably the highest-ranking, most well-paid jobs are already in men's favour. Sure, a man might find it harder to be a nanny, or a PE teacher at a girl's school. But there's no denying that the real inequalities lie in the best paid jobs - CEO's are around 90% men*.

It's hardly comparable, and the male claim for oppression seems to be far more reaching than women's.


*source - https://www.statista.com/statistics/685208/number-of-female-ceo-positions-in-ftse-companies-uk/


CEO's are such a tiny percentage of society of any gender, tend be filled by workaholic, egomaniac people of high sociopathic tendencies who sacrifice traditional personal enjoyments for personal recognition & combine that with high intelligence and high risk tolerance. These are a very unique type of personality.

I personally believe if you go to the extreme RH side of bell curve of people who combine high egomania, narcissism, workaholic, self-sacrifice for self-recognition, high risk taker you would probably find 9 out of 10 of these people are males.

Neither your average man nor average women will become a CEO because its highly unlikely that they have all of these traits, but 1 in x men will and 1 in Y women will, and i believe if you look at the ratio of X:Y it probably is pretty close to what you see in the real world positions, ive spent some time listening to clinical psychologists talk about the statistical nature of personality traits and its something I have come to subscribe to. I dont believe discriminatory social engineering is the right path to correct this. I think you create an equifield of opportunity and you allow people to make their choices, but my opinion doesn't really matter as if you were to state these opinions in a workplace as a policy recommendation you would almost certainly struggle to progress professionally and thus everyone professionally has no choice but to shut up until another generation passes and we look back and say we did X,Y,Z didnt actually correct the problem. People also very selective about which bits to socially engineer no one wants to put action into disproportionate male suicide/incarceration discrepancy/high personal risk professions/manual labour discrepancies...
(edited 3 years ago)
to be honest guys, by your logic, all BAME only scholarships should not be allowed either.



Really (as a woman) all these women only, BAME only scholarships should be disallowed. They should target specific groups by telling them about the benefits of certain careers, but how can you ascertain that the person is truly one of the disadvantaged and you're not just disadvantaging someone else e.g. a white male who may actually not be benefitting from this 'oppression'
Original post by Helloworld_95
Then you should look further into it.

Your point is that equality should not be achieved via a certain kind of encouragement.

People are trying to fix those institutional failures, that's what organisations like Women in Engineering are for, that's why organisations can prefer equally qualified minority candidates, to introduce role models and their experiences into those institutions. You're basically just talking down science as a whole in your next sentence, if you understand how scientific method works then you would understand that it is inherently impossible for one science to be less valid than another. The gendered outcome isn't the only evidence of foul play, but it is a part of the evidence as we see from cultural differences in gender outcome. And you're not being disadvantaged as a man because you're not eligible for a certain scholarship, you are the baseline. Gendered scholarships are an encouragement for those who are typically below the baseline to achieve higher than they normally do. You would be disadvantaged if you were below the baseline as a result of not getting the scholarship.


There isn't much evidence that long-term affirmative action has any significant impact on structure and indeed can even be counter-productive. If your goal is to 'force' equity then such policies do 'work', of course (although quotas would be more effective), but IMHO, the goal should be to allow all individuals a chance to earn resources such as scholarships (meritocracy).

If one takes your view that identity matters and that frequentists statistics tell us something meaningful by quantifying the 'chances' of a given individual, dividing people by gender alone is reductive and crude given intersectionality; it's quite possible that a working-class male whose parents didn't go to university is much less equipped to get ahead in STEM than a private-school educated female with degree-holding parents, for example.

It's widely accepted that the humanities have a crisis of reproducibility. The possibility of a science of man has been doubted since Aristotle, for example. I know it's fashionable to vilify sociology, and I don't go that far, but a great deal of the research that is produced is just a product of the ideological lense adopted and it can all be very subjective. Many of the 'scholars' are also activists so one should be immediately suspicious of their claims.
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by mnot
CEO's are such a tiny percentage of society of any gender, tend be filled by workaholic, egomaniac people of high sociopathic tendencies who sacrifice traditional personal enjoyments for personal recognition & combine that with high intelligence and high risk tolerance. These are a very unique type of personality.

I'm cynical about corporate or 'glass ceiling' feminism. As you say the traits to succeed in this very competitive and ruthless domain are more likely to be found in men, and that's a compliment to women! So the whole business just looks like a vehicle for entitled middle-class corporate women to demand even more than they already have.

If these women want to do more for feminism it was once said they should just pay cleaners $2 more per hour rather than demanding - for themselves - more private resources in the name of all women.
It's not minor but again it's not a medical school specific problem, it's university attendance as a whole. Within a given subject a 60/40 split is generally considered to be acceptable. It's the kind of region where you're significantly less likely to be seeing gender discrimination within that field because you're still pretty much seeing one man for every woman. In engineering we're talking situations where you might not see a single woman in a workplace of 20 people, that's a very different scenario. Even for disciplines within medicine that is quite unlikely unless we're talking about very small organisations. Because that discrimination is a big part of the problem the incentives to close the gap beyond that point are significantly less.

https://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Boys-to-Men.pdf

You're trying to compare situations which aren't entirely comparable. Previously representation of men in higher education was at that point, but it was because of the historical discrimination against women and so it's still reasonable to try to combat the difference. Nowadays the ratio is a combination of an overshoot and a systematic issue in primary and secondary schools, and that is being addressed.
Original post by nighttrain123
There isn't much evidence that long-term affirmative action has any significant impact on structure and indeed can even be counter-productive. If your goal is to 'force' equity then such policies do 'work', of course (although quotas would be more effective), but IMHO, the goal should be to allow all individuals a chance to earn resources such as scholarships (meritocracy).

If one takes your view that identity matters and that frequentists statistics tell us something meaningful by quantifying the 'chances' of a given individual, dividing people by gender alone is reductive and crude given intersectionality; it's quite possible that a working-class male whose parents didn't go to university is much less equipped to get ahead in STEM than a private-school educated female with degree-holding parents, for example.

It's widely accepted that the humanities have a crisis of reproducibility. The possibility of a science of man has been doubted since Aristotle, for example. I know it's fashionable to vilify sociology, and I don't go that far, but a great deal of the research that is produced is just a product of the ideological lense adopted and it can all be very subjective. Many of the 'scholars' are also activists so one should be immediately suspicious of their claims.

And what if those individuals are already advantaged towards earning those scholarships? It's been well demonstrated that academic achievement correlates most strongly with socioeconomic background so if you are assessing students based on merit that becomes inherently discriminatory, that's why systems for encouraging people from worse socioeconomic backgrounds already exist, which you seem to have ignored. Universities provide outreach programmes and bursaries which target students who are less likely to attend university. The majority of my friends at university came from working class backgrounds and received about £10k worth of bursaries across their time at uni as a result, that's roughly equivalent if not more than typical women's scholarships. Awarding a private schooled woman a scholarship doesn't stop a working class man getting one, and equally the working class woman who is doubly underrepresented will get both.

Lots of fields have a crisis of reproducibility, engineering does too. That's more to do with poor ethical standards for submitting research in earlier years than the subjects themselves. Going back before 2000 for any subject is a bit of a minefield and even pre-2015 can be risky.
Original post by Helloworld_95
And what if those individuals are already advantaged towards earning those scholarships? It's been well demonstrated that academic achievement correlates most strongly with socioeconomic background so if you are assessing students based on merit that becomes inherently discriminatory, that's why systems for encouraging people from worse socioeconomic backgrounds already exist, which you seem to have ignored. Universities provide outreach programmes and bursaries which target students who are less likely to attend university. The majority of my friends at university came from working class backgrounds and received about £10k worth of bursaries across their time at uni as a result, that's roughly equivalent if not more than typical women's scholarships.

Awarding a private schooled woman a scholarship doesn't stop a working class man getting one, and equally the working class woman who is doubly underrepresented will get both.

Lots of fields have a crisis of reproducibility, engineering does too. That's more to do with poor ethical standards for submitting research in earlier years than the subjects themselves. Going back before 2000 for any subject is a bit of a minefield and even pre-2015 can be risky.



I've never seen a single PhD scholarship for working-class students only. Perhaps you can point me in their direction?

You can see the issues raised here surely? Affirmative action results in a lot of resentment with everyone competing for deserving status, hence I have always advocated working on the institutions themselves to make them fairer, and a goal where all 'groups' are represented evenly, in any domain, is probably unrealistic. For example, working-class students do measurably worse academically, but they're certainly discriminated against when it comes to interviews etc., so interventions aimed at an even representation would hardly be fair on middle-class students who have earned their place through exam results surely?!

This is on a tangent now but all fields have reproducibility problems but only the humanities have a crisis of reproducibility. One reason for this is that man is a very different object to try and study compared to a rock, for example. It's legitimate to ask what objective knowledge about man/society is even possible.
Sure, pay gaps in single digits are portrayed as a crisis.

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