Jess Phillips: 118 women and girls killed in the UK this year

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adam271
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56365827

As a guy it seems very barbed.
Although every murder is wrong it did seem like she was pointing the finger straight at men.

I wonder how it would of gone down if she further 'filtered' the list to say xx women were killed by black men this year.

Also I believe there was some issue because she used a source that did not count any transwomen. Her list only included those who were biologically born a women. I think the LGBT+ community is quite upset about this.

Although in her defence
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...le-murdered-uk
“it is not possible to identify transgender victims in current homicide statistics” and “the sex of a homicide victim is determined by the police force that records the crime”.


Then there is the most obvious statistic. For every 1 women killed 2 men are killed by homicide.
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This is a quote from Jordan Peterson.
"It’s not the average more aggressive/less agreeable male that’s in prison. In fact, if you draw a random man and a random woman from the population, and you bet that the woman is more aggressive/less agreeable, you’d be correct about 40% of the time. But if you walked into a roomful of people everyone of whom had been selected to be the most aggressive person out of a 100 almost every one of them would be male."


All this is to say that violence is bad. Violence against women is bad. But men are not just the evil perpetrators, they are often the victims.
I just dont really like it when people try to create divides. Which is what I feel may have been the goal.
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Joleee
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it was for International Women's Day, so of course Parliament on that day focussed on women; they also gave a tribute to a woman who recently went missing in London. if it were International Men's Day i would expect the focus to be on men that day :dontknow:

men are also the victims, no doubt - but they are victims of other men. indeed the vast majority of homicides are conducted by men - 76 percent in fact (appendix table 19).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2017

also see here. 78 percent of violent crimes is conducted by men (section 9).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...violent-crimes

so 'pointing the finger' at men for violent crime is statistically accurate; it isn't to make men feel bad about being male. likewise talking about women on International Women's Day isn't to make men feel bad - it's just to apprentice what women go through and their accomplishments, so i wouldn't take it personally.
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username5252758
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It is a confusing analysis to start talking about pointing the finger at men then offer figures for the sex of the victims.

For 18/19, 495 men in the UK were convicted of murder or manslaughter. 46 women had similar convictions and one woman was convicted on infanticide.

From this is is quite clear: we should point the figure at men. Serious violent crime such as murder is very much a gendered issue. The men are overwhelming the perpetrators, regardless of the sex of the victim.

Men with a reasonable amount of emotional resilience can readily accept this fact without taking it as a personal slight because it is obviously not intended as such. Men who can't accept this, particularly those who come out with that tiresome "but not all men" type lines, would benefit from manning up.



This is a quote from Jordan Peterson.

"It’s not the average more aggressive/less agreeable male that’s in prison. In fact, if you draw a random man and a random woman from the population, and you bet that the woman is more aggressive/less agreeable, you’d be correct about 40% of the time. But if you walked into a roomful of people everyone of whom had been selected to be the most aggressive person out of a 100 almost every one of them would be male."
Which is a convoluted way of saying men are, on average, more aggressive than women. One thing I like about Jordan Peterson is he has a way of saying unoriginal and obvious things in a way that some people think is profound. And that is why he sells so many books.
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Wanttobreakfree
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Jordon B. Peterson is a Jungian kook and a religious fundamentalist.
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ThomH97
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Jess Phillips is on record for laughing at the suggestion of discussing men's issues. Yes it was a while ago, but she's made it very clear since that she is predominantly an advocate for women, and not everyone.

While I do see the sense in remembering murder victims (whether or not Parliament is suitable is another matter), I don't see the justification for excluding male victims, nor those where the alleged perpetrator was female. Without also being more specific about motives and opportunities of the murders, there isn't really any purpose served here apart from to deliberately alienate men by only listing victims of men, and only female victims at that.

In response to the OP, I don't think this should be a competition to see who gets killed the most. Yes, men 'win' as the bigger victims in that regard, and women 'win' in that they're behind on killing the other sex. But so what, we should be trying to reduce all those counts to zero, not level them between the sexes first.

I believe there should be more focus on domestic abuse, both in encouragement to leave an abusive situation and support once that decision has been made, but we also need to be very clear to victims that they are typically one of only two people who know about what happens in private and the police have very limited scope to get involved. And they are certainly the only one of the two who wants to change it, and the police can't do anything if you keep going back.
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adam271
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(Original post by Calibrated.)
It is a confusing analysis to start talking about pointing the finger at men then offer figures for the sex of the victims.

For 18/19, 495 men in the UK were convicted of murder or manslaughter. 46 women had similar convictions and one woman was convicted on infanticide.

From this is is quite clear: we should point the figure at men. Serious violent crime such as murder is very much a gendered issue. The men are overwhelming the perpetrators, regardless of the sex of the victim.

Men with a reasonable amount of emotional resilience can readily accept this fact without taking it as a personal slight because it is obviously not intended as such. Men who can't accept this, particularly those who come out with that tiresome "but not all men" type lines, would benefit from manning up.





Which is a convoluted way of saying men are, on average, more aggressive than women. One thing I like about Jordan Peterson is he has a way of saying unoriginal and obvious things in a way that some people think is profound. And that is why he sells so many books.
Im not by any strech a pro-man person. But it just seems a bit too what is happening in the US. In which people are stating that black men are disproportionately involved in crime.
"“It’s important to note that black men commit nearly half of all murders in this country, which is astounding when you take into consideration the fact that they only make up 12-13 per cent of the population.”"
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...s-commit-crime

My main issue is what does it achieve? No one is doubting the factual nature of what she said. But what is the solution?
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adam271
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What do you guys think of this as a solution?
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Napp
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(Original post by Joleee)
it was for International Women's Day, so of course Parliament on that day focussed on women; they also gave a tribute to a woman who recently went missing in London. if it were International Men's Day i would expect the focus to be on men that day :dontknow:

men are also the victims, no doubt - but they are victims of other men. indeed the vast majority of homicides are conducted by men - 76 percent in fact (appendix table 19).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2017

also see here. 78 percent of violent crimes is conducted by men (section 9).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...violent-crimes

so 'pointing the finger' at men for violent crime is statistically accurate; it isn't to make men feel bad about being male. likewise talking about women on International Women's Day isn't to make men feel bad - it's just to apprentice what women go through and their accomplishments, so i wouldn't take it personally.
Whilst i agree with what you said its worth pointing out theres a vocal minority who are trying to make it personal and about all men. Just look at the garbage floating around on social media at the moment noting that even men who would never lay a finger on a woman are to blame simply by the fact theyre not actively hunting out any potentially violent man and "educating" them.
There is definitely a problem with violence, both towards women and more generally but i do find this trend to make people culpable simply by virtue of their mere existence a touch troubling. Although this trend goes to many other hot button topics these days be it the so called 'anti racists' and their blm protestors and so on so forth.
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adam271
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(Original post by Napp)
Whilst i agree with what you said its worth pointing out theres a vocal minority who are trying to make it personal and about all men. Just look at the garbage floating around on social media at the moment noting that even men who would never lay a finger on a woman are to blame simply by the fact theyre not actively hunting out any potentially violent man and "educating" them.
There is definitely a problem with violence, both towards women and more generally but i do find this trend to make people culpable simply by virtue of their mere existence a touch troubling. Although this trend goes to many other hot button topics these days be it the so called 'anti racists' and their blm protestors and so on so forth.
There are some people just laser focused on gender or any other unique characteristic.

The solution to this is an easy one. The problems often occur in the home. Should the government interfere in a persons home life?
I suspect most women would not like their private life introded on all in the name of protection. I may be wrong. But I wouldnt.

But it really is the only way to solve the issue. At a guess it would be random spot checks of houses and flats. No one can refuse the police entry. Then they would ensure all the women are safe and not being abused before moving onto the next house.

The amount of police for this to be effective though would be insane. Another option would be CCTV in the house that connects straight to the Police. Machine learning would be able to determine any dangerous behaviour and flag it to the poice.

How many want CCTV in their house though?

Or we can just do a male curfew like the woman in the house of lords suggested.
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ThomH97
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(Original post by adam271)
There are some people just laser focused on gender or any other unique characteristic.

The solution to this is an easy one. The problems often occur in the home. Should the government interfere in a persons home life?
I suspect most women would not like their private life introded on all in the name of protection. I may be wrong. But I wouldnt.

But it really is the only way to solve the issue. At a guess it would be random spot checks of houses and flats. No one can refuse the police entry. Then they would ensure all the women are safe and not being abused before moving onto the next house.

The amount of police for this to be effective though would be insane. Another option would be CCTV in the house that connects straight to the Police. Machine learning would be able to determine any dangerous behaviour and flag it to the poice.

How many want CCTV in their house though?

Or we can just do a male curfew like the woman in the house of lords suggested.
The big problem is victims going back to their abusers. Yes there are the one time offences that are murder, but it rarely goes that far without prior lesser violence.

Going back to your abuser is implicit forgiveness (especially if it is repeated), and a refusal to press charges. Either we look at that as adults making their own decision and just leave it, or we go a bit deeper and see that often the abuser has financial or other power over their victim. That's why support and encouragement for victims to leave their abuser is so important. That's the key here - if someone's abusing you, get out.

It is not a solution to have the cops doing spot checks on households. To agree to such an intrusion on privacy and indeed freedom would be ridiculous, and really, why would anyone agree to it? If I thought my partner was going to abuse me, I would leave them, not permit the cops to barge in whenever they feel like it. Imagine living with someone but only feeling safe because the cops were watching everything. What's the point?
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Wōden
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(Original post by adam271)
There are some people just laser focused on gender or any other unique characteristic.

The solution to this is an easy one. The problems often occur in the home. Should the government interfere in a persons home life?
I suspect most women would not like their private life introded on all in the name of protection. I may be wrong. But I wouldnt.

But it really is the only way to solve the issue. At a guess it would be random spot checks of houses and flats. No one can refuse the police entry. Then they would ensure all the women are safe and not being abused before moving onto the next house.

The amount of police for this to be effective though would be insane. Another option would be CCTV in the house that connects straight to the Police. Machine learning would be able to determine any dangerous behaviour and flag it to the poice.

How many want CCTV in their house though?

Or we can just do a male curfew like the woman in the house of lords suggested.
Jesus ****ing Christ, don't go giving our government any more ideas. Having already gotten away with implementing an all manner of dictatorial policies in 2020 that would previously have been unthinkable in any free country, such as placing everybody under effective house arrest for half a year, they might just be emboldened enough to actually go ahead with something as extreme as that.
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adam271
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(Original post by Wōden)
Jesus ****ing Christ, don't go giving our government any more ideas. Having already gotten away with implementing an all manner of dictatorial policies in 2020 that would previously have been unthinkable in any free country, such as placing everybody under effective house arrest for half a year, they might just be emboldened enough to actually go ahead with something as extreme as that.
Believe it or not some people are suggesting this.
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