Vapordave
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#21
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#21
(Original post by adam271)
A young boy has been groomed for a long time to be told he is gay. By a family relative or a parent. The young boy has been made to have sex with this older person who has through conditioning imposed his own sexual orientation onto him.
The young boy now an adult now feels confused. He doesnt want to be gay. But at the same time, he feels he is and he can only get sexual gratification from other men.
This is completely out of the scope of conversion therapy in its most popular form.
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parmezanne
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#22
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#22
(Original post by adam271)
people who are gay but want to be straight
The only reason I can think of as to why gay people would want to be straight is so they can avoid the oppression that comes with being gay.

Through the existence of conversion therapy, the idea that being gay should be avoided is actively perpetuated and encouraged. The idea of it is completely archaic and awful and the methods that can be used are even worse.

(Original post by adam271)
being able to change your sexual orientation is pretty easy.
I'm going to assume you're straight in this instance - if I asked you to be gay for the rest of your life, do you think you could do it? Forcing feelings that simply aren't there? Living a lie to everyone around you?
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adam271
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#23
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#23
I think if there are straight guys that want to identify as gay. There must be gay guys who want to identify as straight.
I cant really respond exactly to what you said because it looks like you just quoted two half sentences to ensure no context and I cant be assed to go back and read what I originally said.

But I gave examples of people who may identify as gay but may want to be straight. i.e people who may have been groomed and are sexually confused. It may not be a huge amount of people but its not insignificant.

Another reason may just be because they want to be attracted to women and they want to have a family. Ye maybe, its a bit superficial maybe the person should just accept their sexual orientation. But they should have the choice to try to change it if they want. Heck I think getting a boob job is superficial and a bit stupid. But if they want to do it why not.

(Original post by parmezanne)
I'm going to assume you're straight in this instance - if I asked you to be gay for the rest of your life, do you think you could do it? Forcing feelings that simply aren't there? Living a lie to everyone around you?
If I got conditioned right I'd be happy. I'd personally like a little chocolate treat with a clicker for the positive conditioning. .
Now you may say.. Well humams are special you cant condition humans like you can animals.
https://www.simplypsychology.org/little-albert.html
Now maybe you will say, well that was just fear that got conditioned into Albert. Sexual attraction is a mysterious and complicated thing you cant condition someone to be gay.. I disagree. Plently of people have become asexual through training or conditioning. Either via training / religious teachings or the many other ways someone becomes asexual. And as Asexual is a sexual orientation then your orientation can change through different methods.
Last edited by adam271; 4 weeks ago
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parmezanne
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#24
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#24
(Original post by adam271)
Plenty of people have become asexual through training or conditioning.
What kind of world is this? One where gay people have to go back in the closet, or face 'conditioning' to force us to be straight?

How abhorrent.
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adam271
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#25
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#25
(Original post by parmezanne)
What kind of world is this? One where gay people have to go back in the closet, or face 'conditioning' to force us to be straight?

How abhorrent.
Only the world in your own head. No one has to do anything. Only choice.
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Vapordave
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#26
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(Original post by adam271)
Only the world in your own head. No one has to do anything. Only choice.
Choices are very commonly influenced by social pressures.

Assuming conversion therapy actually does work (to our knowledge, it does not), I fear that the world parmezanne describes will become reality for far too many people.
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adam271
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Vapordave)
Choices are very commonly influenced by social pressures.

Assuming conversion therapy actually does work (to our knowledge, it does not), I fear that the world parmezanne describes will become reality for far too many people.
But why wouldnt it work? Is the 'sexual orientation' part of our personality the only thing that is so resilient that it is impossible to change.
Humans can be conditioned. That is fact.

The only argument I see against that fact is that sexual orientation is defined at birth so it is impossible to change. I dont think is the case.
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Vapordave
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#28
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(Original post by adam271)
But why wouldnt it work? Is the 'sexual orientation' part of our personality the only thing that is so resilient that it is impossible to change.
Humans can be conditioned. That is fact.

The only argument I see against that fact is that sexual orientation is defined at birth so it is impossible to change. I dont think is the case.
Conditioning is not the same as changing sexual orientation. You can condition a left-handed person to use their right hand (as is common depending on location and point in history) but the aforementioned fact does not change.

Why so? Can you provide some reputable studies to back up your claim?
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adam271
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#29
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(Original post by Vapordave)
Conditioning is not the same as changing sexual orientation. You can condition a left-handed person to use their right hand (as is common depending on location and point in history) but the aforementioned fact does not change.

Why so? Can you provide some reputable studies to back up your claim?

Why so? You can condition someone who hates flying to love it.
I've provided some on animals. I believe.
https://link.springer.com/content/pd...BF03336131.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3960032/
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Vapordave
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(Original post by adam271)
Why so? You can condition someone who hates flying to love it.
I've provided some on animals. I believe.
https://link.springer.com/content/pd...BF03336131.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3960032/
I see.

I mean, you can go out and perfect your own brand of conversion therapy if you're confident that you will be successful, but as I said before, most if not all instances of conversion therapy 1) are unsuccessful and 2) cause moderate to severe psychological trauma.
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adam271
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Vapordave)
I see.

I mean, you can go out and perfect your own brand of conversion therapy if you're confident that you will be successful, but as I said before, most if not all instances of conversion therapy 1) are unsuccessful and 2) cause moderate to severe psychological trauma.
Actually 100% agree with you.
But same could be said for cosmetic surgergy or steroid use. Each to their own. I just think a full grown adult if he/she wants to be brainwashed into thinking they are straight then fine.

I also dont think cigarettes or weed should be banned. It should be up to the person.
I am quite a big fan of libertarianism.

Any religious institution should be banned from practicing it though. Should only be done by people with no agenda and who can tell if the person is being coerced into doing it.
Last edited by adam271; 4 weeks ago
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Vapordave
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#32
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#32
(Original post by adam271)
Actually 100% agree with you.
But same could be said for cosmetic surgergy or steroid use. Each to their own. I just think a full grown adult if he/she wants to be brainwashed into thinking they are straight then fine.

I also dont think cigarettes or weed should be banned. It should be up to the person.
I am quite a big fan of libertarianism.

Any religious institution should be banned from practicing it though. Should only be done by people with no agenda and who can tell if the person is being coerced into doing it.
Fair enough, I suppose it just aligns with your general libertarian views. As long as it is banned on minors l don't feel quite as strongly about it.

I'm not too sure how only banning religious institutions could theoretically work. An outlet could simply describe themselves as non-religious while being religiously affiliated, as is relatively common for therapists in the US
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Joleee
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#33
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#33
what i'm gathering so far in this thread is that if you have consented to a harmful pseudo-science that is psychologically damaging and physically dangerous cuz God hates homosexuality, then it should be legal - but the issue here is whether an adult, actually, can consent.

consent requires capacity, meaning you are of sound mind making a completely informed decision - not manipulated into one under duress, which isn't likely for those interested in conversation therapy. a normal healthy person who loved themselves wouldn't reasonably consent to public exorcisms, 'corrective rape' or electronic shock therapy that has been proven not to work. they had to have been convinced there is something seriously wrong with them by an institutional authority - in this case the church - that they are mentally deranged and need 'therapy' otherwise they're going to hell for the rest of eternity. i would argue then it's unlikely that a person can reasonably consent to such a procedure because of the power dynamics in this instance; it's like in contract law you are indeed allowed to enter an unfair contract if there is consent - but the contract will be void if it was made under duress (result of threats) and you can make a claim for undue influence (where one person taking advantage of a position of power over another person. in this case the church vs the individual) as individuals are unable to express their own independent will.
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adam271
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Joleee)
what i'm gathering so far in this thread is that if you have consented to a harmful pseudo-science that is psychologically damaging and physically dangerous cuz God hates homosexuality, then it should be legal - but the issue here is whether an adult, actually, can consent.

consent requires capacity, meaning you are of sound mind making a completely informed decision - not manipulated into one under duress, which isn't likely for those interested in conversation therapy. a normal healthy person who loved themselves wouldn't reasonably consent to public exorcisms, 'corrective rape' or electronic shock therapy that has been proven not to work. they had to have been convinced there is something seriously wrong with them by an institutional authority - in this case the church - that they are mentally deranged and need 'therapy' otherwise they're going to hell for the rest of eternity. i would argue then it's unlikely that a person can reasonably consent to such a procedure because of the power dynamics in this instance; it's like in contract law you are indeed allowed to enter an unfair contract if there is consent - but the contract will be void if it was made under duress (result of threats) and you can make a claim for undue influence (where one person taking advantage of a position of power over another person. in this case the church vs the individual) as individuals are unable to express their own independent will.



Nope, in fact I am an athiest. Heck I dont think it is right that kids get indoctrinated the moment they are born and being told they are 'Christian' or 'Muslim' or 'Jewish'.
I am not in favour of pseudo-science either.
Obviously, exorcisms should be banned. The same with corrective rape and electro-shock therapy.

What I am on about is talk therapy by a trained psychologist with some conditioning.

I do agree though that it is probably difficult to distinguish between those who just want to do it to fit in or for their own personal reasons compared to those who may be doing it under durest. But a trained independent psychologist should be able to tell the difference.


That being said it is all mute I guess. Because it would be difficult to find a psychologist willing to do it. That is no doubt why exorcisms and conversion therapies by religious groups are so popular.
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The RAR
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#35
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#35
Any kind of conversion "therapy" should be banned. It is harmful and simply ****s up someone's mental health
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Napp
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#36
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(Original post by The RAR)
Any kind of conversion "therapy" should be banned. It is harmful and simply ****s up someone's mental health
Conversion therapy encompasses simple therapy though. Do we really want to ban that when its designed to help people understand what theyre going through? Look at the examples of respected psychologists getting their careers trashed for so called conversion therapy by simply talking to their patients. (the doctor in Canada who was the head of a well respected gender clinic being a case in point) It seems this area of medicine has been caught up in the culture wars on the topic of sexuality somehow :lol:
Now the kind with the elctric shocks, drugs and other quasi torture should definitely be banned. The problem is 'conversion therapy' covers a wide band of practices, some perfectly legitimate and, indeed, valuable others not so much.
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Napp
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#37
(Original post by adam271)
Nope, in fact I am an athiest. Heck I dont think it is right that kids get indoctrinated the moment they are born and being told they are 'Christian' or 'Muslim' or 'Jewish'.
I am not in favour of pseudo-science either.
Obviously, exorcisms should be banned. The same with corrective rape and electro-shock therapy.

What I am on about is talk therapy by a trained psychologist with some conditioning.

I do agree though that it is probably difficult to distinguish between those who just want to do it to fit in or for their own personal reasons compared to those who may be doing it under durest. But a trained independent psychologist should be able to tell the difference.


That being said it is all mute I guess. Because it would be difficult to find a psychologist willing to do it. That is no doubt why exorcisms and conversion therapies by religious groups are so popular.
In regards to 'curing' homosexuals or in all cases?
Exorcisms are an interesting one though, aside from being child abuse (being done with adults its just plain odd) theyre not usually particularly offensive are they? Quackery of the rankest order but other than that just your upper end religious lunacy.
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parmezanne
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(Original post by Napp)
'curing' homosexuals
the fact that this is the very premise of conversion therapy yet is still deemed acceptable is beyond me. I feel like we've stepped into a time warp where gays are no longer allowed anymore.
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adam271
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#39
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(Original post by Napp)
In regards to 'curing' homosexuals or in all cases?
Exorcisms are an interesting one though, aside from being child abuse (being done with adults its just plain odd) theyre not usually particularly offensive are they? Quackery of the rankest order but other than that just your upper end religious lunacy.
I dunno I imagine electro shock therapy has some practical use somewhere. Probably not ethical for behaviour modification. Although I swear I've heard it used with pedophiles to stop them being attracted to kids with some effectiveness.

To me it seems if your going to get a shock every time you get aroused you will soon stop getting aroused. Might have some side effects though.

As for exorcisms. Most of them are harmless. A few can be dangerous.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ind...026.html%3famp
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adam271
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#40
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I got a warning for this post yet it is still up lol
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