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Non-binary renter has to 'straightwash' themself to appeal to landlords
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Whilst this is a Kiwi specific article i'd be surprised if similar claims arent made in the UK, Europe, America etc. What does everyone else think though, especially those who identify as this, do you believe you suffer discrimination in housing/jobs or what not because of being a non-binary?
I'm cuirous what people think here? Do you think theres much credence in these claims or do they rank similarly to claims of other forms of nominal bigotry which are assumed as opposed to actually having any basis in evidence? The case in point being i rather doubt any land lords (bar the completely moronic) have ever expressly told a "non-binary" person that that is the reason they didnt get the flat, well, unless they like being sued
Maybe its just me and my pessimism but it seems like this stems more from people not being able to accept that there is a housing crisis and are looking for ways to blame it on their nominal identity as opposed to basic facts on the ground.
Then again, people dont tend to take well to the more, shall we say, eclectic looking in society (people will always judge a book by its cover after all). It would be rather similar to someone dressing up in drag (or something equally out there) and going to an interview and being surprised as not getting the job.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...l-to-landlords
I'm cuirous what people think here? Do you think theres much credence in these claims or do they rank similarly to claims of other forms of nominal bigotry which are assumed as opposed to actually having any basis in evidence? The case in point being i rather doubt any land lords (bar the completely moronic) have ever expressly told a "non-binary" person that that is the reason they didnt get the flat, well, unless they like being sued
Maybe its just me and my pessimism but it seems like this stems more from people not being able to accept that there is a housing crisis and are looking for ways to blame it on their nominal identity as opposed to basic facts on the ground.
Then again, people dont tend to take well to the more, shall we say, eclectic looking in society (people will always judge a book by its cover after all). It would be rather similar to someone dressing up in drag (or something equally out there) and going to an interview and being surprised as not getting the job.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...l-to-landlords
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#3
I can see why they don't appeal to landlords, I wouldn't if I dressed in my normal casual clothing. Most people dress vaguely smart for property viewings because you will be judged and normally pretty harshly.
I feel like this is just being a professional victim rather any actual discrimination.
Just realised they are 19 with no stable income looking for bottom of the rung properties
I feel like this is just being a professional victim rather any actual discrimination.
Just realised they are 19 with no stable income looking for bottom of the rung properties
Last edited by DiddyDec; 1 week ago
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#4
I scanned this article.
She says she had to "straightwash" but she doesn't read LGBTQ. When I see her, I just think a "hippie". Smoking pot and drinking with her friends till all hours ... No regular income ... blah blah.
She says she had to "straightwash" but she doesn't read LGBTQ. When I see her, I just think a "hippie". Smoking pot and drinking with her friends till all hours ... No regular income ... blah blah.
Last edited by Pythian; 1 week ago
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#5
It is probably more to do with personality type, age, income, lack of stable employment history and very unfavourable first impressions at viewings than her gender id or sexual orientation.
That said, no landlord or managing agent in their right mind would ever be stupid enough to admit taking a potential tenant's gender or sexual preferences into account.
That said, no landlord or managing agent in their right mind would ever be stupid enough to admit taking a potential tenant's gender or sexual preferences into account.
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#6
I mean it's possible that they where discriminated against because they identify as non-binary. The only people who know for certain are the landlords.
I wonder why they find it necessary to inform the landlord that they are 'non-binary'. Landlords generally aren't a big part of peoples lives. Maybe you could accuse me of 'victim blaming', I don't know.
Certain clothes are appropriate in certain situations. We don't uphold these norms in order to make NB indentifed people miserable.
I find assertion that it was necessary to cover their coloured hair bizarre. Plenty of people who rent have coloured hair.
If you blame everything on bigotry, if you turn being a victim of bigotry into a central part of your identity, you can absolve yourself from taking any responsibility for yourself. Instead of being called out, people on the Internet pander to it and even celebrate it.
They may well have not been offered the flat for legitimate reasons not relating to their 'gender identity' that where in their control. Instead of making an effort to address these reasons, they squeal victim.
I wonder why they find it necessary to inform the landlord that they are 'non-binary'. Landlords generally aren't a big part of peoples lives. Maybe you could accuse me of 'victim blaming', I don't know.
Certain clothes are appropriate in certain situations. We don't uphold these norms in order to make NB indentifed people miserable.
I find assertion that it was necessary to cover their coloured hair bizarre. Plenty of people who rent have coloured hair.
If you blame everything on bigotry, if you turn being a victim of bigotry into a central part of your identity, you can absolve yourself from taking any responsibility for yourself. Instead of being called out, people on the Internet pander to it and even celebrate it.
They may well have not been offered the flat for legitimate reasons not relating to their 'gender identity' that where in their control. Instead of making an effort to address these reasons, they squeal victim.
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(Original post by glassalice)
I mean it's possible that they where discriminated against because they identify as non-binary. The only people who know for certain are the landlords.
I wonder why they find it necessary to inform the landlord that they are 'non-binary'. Landlords generally aren't a big part of peoples lives. Maybe you could accuse me of 'victim blaming', I don't know.
I mean it's possible that they where discriminated against because they identify as non-binary. The only people who know for certain are the landlords.
I wonder why they find it necessary to inform the landlord that they are 'non-binary'. Landlords generally aren't a big part of peoples lives. Maybe you could accuse me of 'victim blaming', I don't know.
Certain clothes are appropriate in certain situations. We don't uphold these norms in order to make NB indentifed people miserable.
I find assertion that it was necessary to cover their coloured hair bizarre. Plenty of people who rent have coloured hair.
If you blame everything on bigotry, if you turn being a victim of bigotry into a central part of your identity, you can absolve yourself from taking any responsibility for yourself. Instead of being called out, people on the Internet pander to it and even celebrate it.
They may well have not been offered the flat for legitimate reasons not relating to their 'gender identity' that where in their control. Instead of making an effort to address these reasons, they squeal victim.
I find assertion that it was necessary to cover their coloured hair bizarre. Plenty of people who rent have coloured hair.
If you blame everything on bigotry, if you turn being a victim of bigotry into a central part of your identity, you can absolve yourself from taking any responsibility for yourself. Instead of being called out, people on the Internet pander to it and even celebrate it.
They may well have not been offered the flat for legitimate reasons not relating to their 'gender identity' that where in their control. Instead of making an effort to address these reasons, they squeal victim.
Its interesting though, i was recently doing flat viewings to find someone to take the spare room at my place and we made the decision to reject 9 of the 10 applicants. It happens several of them come from various foreign countries from Paistan to Korea and so on, i wonder if they think this was a racist thing? As opposed to the simple fact both landlords and the existing tenants ant someone who fits the flat. Fun times aye?
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#8
(Original post by DiddyDec)
I can see why they don't appeal to landlords, I wouldn't if I dressed in my normal casual clothing. Most people dress vaguely smart for property viewings because you will be judged and normally pretty harshly.
I feel like this is just being a professional victim rather any actual discrimination.
Just realised they are 19 with no stable income looking for bottom of the rung properties
I can see why they don't appeal to landlords, I wouldn't if I dressed in my normal casual clothing. Most people dress vaguely smart for property viewings because you will be judged and normally pretty harshly.
I feel like this is just being a professional victim rather any actual discrimination.
Just realised they are 19 with no stable income looking for bottom of the rung properties
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#9
(Original post by Napp)
Then again, people dont tend to take well to the more, shall we say, eclectic looking in society (people will always judge a book by its cover after all). It would be rather similar to someone dressing up in drag (or something equally out there) and going to an interview and being surprised as not getting the job.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...l-to-landlords
Then again, people dont tend to take well to the more, shall we say, eclectic looking in society (people will always judge a book by its cover after all). It would be rather similar to someone dressing up in drag (or something equally out there) and going to an interview and being surprised as not getting the job.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...l-to-landlords
anyway, idk. it's a mental pretzel for me because true, the default in appearance is heteronormative, so you have to play that game if you're queer. but can't you be queer/non-binary while dressed in a heteronormative suit? like your gender identity hasn't changed just cuz you're dressed differently (honest question
). i suppose the argument is you can't be yourself, but then neither can i. if i was myself i'd go to the office in my pyjamas.regarding the article, there's too many holes in it to pick at i could be here all day. 44 percent of trans/non-binary say they have been discrimated against in housing; but that isn't proof of discrimination. like you said, no landlord is going to say 'yeah your application has been denied specially cuz you're queer' unless they're a dumbbell.
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(Original post by Joleee)
yeah i was going to say something similar. when you go to an interview you have to 'dress' the part. no one who does drag in their spare time would show up to an interview for a training contract, police officer or landlord in that gear.
anyway, idk. it's a mental pretzel for me because true, the default in appearance is heteronormative, so you have to play that game if you're queer. but can't you be queer/non-binary while dressed in a heteronormative suit? like your gender identity hasn't changed just cuz you're dressed differently (honest question
). i suppose the argument is you can't be yourself, but then neither can i. if i was myself i'd go to the office in my pyjamas.
regarding the article, there's too many holes in it to pick at i could be here all day. 44 percent of trans/non-binary say they have been discrimated against in housing; but that isn't proof of discrimination. like you said, no landlord is going to say 'yeah your application has been denied specially cuz you're queer' unless they're a dumbbell.
yeah i was going to say something similar. when you go to an interview you have to 'dress' the part. no one who does drag in their spare time would show up to an interview for a training contract, police officer or landlord in that gear.
anyway, idk. it's a mental pretzel for me because true, the default in appearance is heteronormative, so you have to play that game if you're queer. but can't you be queer/non-binary while dressed in a heteronormative suit? like your gender identity hasn't changed just cuz you're dressed differently (honest question
). i suppose the argument is you can't be yourself, but then neither can i. if i was myself i'd go to the office in my pyjamas.regarding the article, there's too many holes in it to pick at i could be here all day. 44 percent of trans/non-binary say they have been discrimated against in housing; but that isn't proof of discrimination. like you said, no landlord is going to say 'yeah your application has been denied specially cuz you're queer' unless they're a dumbbell.
But given Wellington is known as a fairly gay city (simply walking down Cuba street would ram home this point nicely) i find their claims somewhat questionable, at least in relation to the scale of their alleged problems. It seems its easier to blame a problem everyone is facing on discrimination than simply accept that housing shortages are a serious problem here at the moment.
Then again, some people have made good observations that first impressions do count, if someone comes to the flat viewing dressed like a hippie pot smoker or generally in a shabby state people will jump to conclusions on their suitability - will they smoke/do drugs/party in the flat etc. Which are not unreasonable concerns to be honest.
Broadly though, i'd be interested to see if such complaints are much of a thing in the UK where, generally, the acceptance of such unique individuals can be a bit more hit and miss (especially in the North and in rural areas)
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#11
(Original post by Pythian)
I scanned this article.
She says she had to "straightwash" but she doesn't read LGBTQ. When I see her, I just think a "hippie". Smoking pot and drinking with her friends till all hours ... No regular income ... blah blah.
I scanned this article.
She says she had to "straightwash" but she doesn't read LGBTQ. When I see her, I just think a "hippie". Smoking pot and drinking with her friends till all hours ... No regular income ... blah blah.
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#12
I highly doubt any landlord cares how she identifies but it does speak to a personality type and that does.
If I am a landlord and have a choice between a 30 year professionally dressed person who looks like their wildest habit might be purchasing the Financial Times rather than the Telegraph and a nose ringed, tattooed, green haired self identifying non binary person (not that I acknowledge they really exist but that's a seperate debate) who looks like they probably rotate between E, Ketamin and Cannabis each weekend then it's really a no brainer who your going to choose.
Moral of the story is even in states with liberal views on drugs or casualty, there are going to be people who want to rent their house to a boring professional over a mad hatter looking person. That should not be a shock and it's the person's fault if they chose not to look the part when asking for use of an asset worth tens of thousands to the landlord.
If I am a landlord and have a choice between a 30 year professionally dressed person who looks like their wildest habit might be purchasing the Financial Times rather than the Telegraph and a nose ringed, tattooed, green haired self identifying non binary person (not that I acknowledge they really exist but that's a seperate debate) who looks like they probably rotate between E, Ketamin and Cannabis each weekend then it's really a no brainer who your going to choose.
Moral of the story is even in states with liberal views on drugs or casualty, there are going to be people who want to rent their house to a boring professional over a mad hatter looking person. That should not be a shock and it's the person's fault if they chose not to look the part when asking for use of an asset worth tens of thousands to the landlord.
Last edited by Rakas21; 1 week ago
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#13
Some more thoughts on this:
You've got to wonder, at what point does 'gender expression' becomes bloody mindedness.
Does 'living outside of the constraints of gender' encompass disregarding social norms pertaining to clothing style? I assume that NB people normally aim to emulate a certain degree of androgyny. Suits can look androgynous, so is their NB indentity really the issue here?
Social norms aren't always a bad thing, they are necessary for a cohesive society. A lack of shared social norms is the reason why multiculturalism doesn't work. They provide a framework for communication, in this case wearing smart clothing shows a certain level of respect towards the prospective landlord. If you don't want to play ball, ultimately you are going to suffer.
By associating their excentric mode of dress with their 'gender identity' they can garner sympathy (gender identity is someone's immutable sense of their true self, soul like) because their need to wear those specific clothes is not a choice.
You've got to wonder, at what point does 'gender expression' becomes bloody mindedness.
Does 'living outside of the constraints of gender' encompass disregarding social norms pertaining to clothing style? I assume that NB people normally aim to emulate a certain degree of androgyny. Suits can look androgynous, so is their NB indentity really the issue here?
Social norms aren't always a bad thing, they are necessary for a cohesive society. A lack of shared social norms is the reason why multiculturalism doesn't work. They provide a framework for communication, in this case wearing smart clothing shows a certain level of respect towards the prospective landlord. If you don't want to play ball, ultimately you are going to suffer.
By associating their excentric mode of dress with their 'gender identity' they can garner sympathy (gender identity is someone's immutable sense of their true self, soul like) because their need to wear those specific clothes is not a choice.
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#14
(Original post by glassalice)
Some more thoughts on this:
You've got to wonder, at what point does 'gender expression' becomes bloody mindedness.
Does 'living outside of the constraints of gender' encompass disregarding social norms pertaining to clothing style? I assume that NB people normally aim to emulate a certain degree of androgyny. Suits can look androgynous, so is their NB indentity really the issue here?
Social norms aren't always a bad thing, they are necessary for a cohesive society. A lack of shared social norms is the reason why multiculturalism doesn't work. They provide a framework for communication, in this case wearing smart clothing shows a certain level of respect towards the prospective landlord. If you don't want to play ball, ultimately you are going to suffer.
By associating their excentric mode of dress with their 'gender identity' they can garner sympathy (gender identity is someone's immutable sense of their true self, soul like) because their need to wear those specific clothes is not a choice.
Some more thoughts on this:
You've got to wonder, at what point does 'gender expression' becomes bloody mindedness.
Does 'living outside of the constraints of gender' encompass disregarding social norms pertaining to clothing style? I assume that NB people normally aim to emulate a certain degree of androgyny. Suits can look androgynous, so is their NB indentity really the issue here?
Social norms aren't always a bad thing, they are necessary for a cohesive society. A lack of shared social norms is the reason why multiculturalism doesn't work. They provide a framework for communication, in this case wearing smart clothing shows a certain level of respect towards the prospective landlord. If you don't want to play ball, ultimately you are going to suffer.
By associating their excentric mode of dress with their 'gender identity' they can garner sympathy (gender identity is someone's immutable sense of their true self, soul like) because their need to wear those specific clothes is not a choice.
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#15
(Original post by Napp)
I would be amused to see what kind of survey they conducted to arrive at the 44% figure, suffice it to say i doubt their methodology is overly sound
But given Wellington is known as a fairly gay city (simply walking down Cuba street would ram home this point nicely) i find their claims somewhat questionable, at least in relation to the scale of their alleged problems. It seems its easier to blame a problem everyone is facing on discrimination than simply accept that housing shortages are a serious problem here at the moment.
Then again, some people have made good observations that first impressions do count, if someone comes to the flat viewing dressed like a hippie pot smoker or generally in a shabby state people will jump to conclusions on their suitability - will they smoke/do drugs/party in the flat etc. Which are not unreasonable concerns to be honest.
Broadly though, i'd be interested to see if such complaints are much of a thing in the UK where, generally, the acceptance of such unique individuals can be a bit more hit and miss (especially in the North and in rural areas)
I would be amused to see what kind of survey they conducted to arrive at the 44% figure, suffice it to say i doubt their methodology is overly sound
But given Wellington is known as a fairly gay city (simply walking down Cuba street would ram home this point nicely) i find their claims somewhat questionable, at least in relation to the scale of their alleged problems. It seems its easier to blame a problem everyone is facing on discrimination than simply accept that housing shortages are a serious problem here at the moment.
Then again, some people have made good observations that first impressions do count, if someone comes to the flat viewing dressed like a hippie pot smoker or generally in a shabby state people will jump to conclusions on their suitability - will they smoke/do drugs/party in the flat etc. Which are not unreasonable concerns to be honest.
Broadly though, i'd be interested to see if such complaints are much of a thing in the UK where, generally, the acceptance of such unique individuals can be a bit more hit and miss (especially in the North and in rural areas)
) my guess is the question in the survey was something vague, like 'have you ever been discrimated against because of your gender?' without needing to provide a credible explanation. i mean surely the article would have gone into more depth if it could be proven? i haven't been to Wellington; only flew into Queenstown then drove up to Marlborough which was beautiful
except the loo was strangely in the centre of the hotel room and the door didn't go down to the floor the fact is you can't tell a person's gender identity just by looking at them all the time. just be looking at the photos the person in the article looks unkempt. but perhaps the landlord is 60 years old, doesn't even know about non-binary people (like i know my dad doesn't, and wouldn't know a non-binary person from a lamppost), and the discrimination was based off not looking like a professional(?). so then is that discriminatory against non-professionals or people who generally don't know better or those who choose to 'defy' social norms? and is that disproportionate to the general population(?) and is that right in itself (?). there are too many questions i don't even know where to start.
(i struggle with this tho because i look like a hippie pot-smoker, but i don't smoke pot nor party in the flat. i'm a Christian conservative in practice that believes you can't judge someone by their outward appearance but accepts that it does indeed happen.)
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#16
(Original post by Napp)
Whilst this is a Kiwi specific article i'd be surprised if similar claims arent made in the UK, Europe, America etc. What does everyone else think though, especially those who identify as this, do you believe you suffer discrimination in housing/jobs or what not because of being a non-binary?
I'm cuirous what people think here? Do you think theres much credence in these claims or do they rank similarly to claims of other forms of nominal bigotry which are assumed as opposed to actually having any basis in evidence? The case in point being i rather doubt any land lords (bar the completely moronic) have ever expressly told a "non-binary" person that that is the reason they didnt get the flat, well, unless they like being sued
Maybe its just me and my pessimism but it seems like this stems more from people not being able to accept that there is a housing crisis and are looking for ways to blame it on their nominal identity as opposed to basic facts on the ground.
Then again, people dont tend to take well to the more, shall we say, eclectic looking in society (people will always judge a book by its cover after all). It would be rather similar to someone dressing up in drag (or something equally out there) and going to an interview and being surprised as not getting the job.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...l-to-landlords
Whilst this is a Kiwi specific article i'd be surprised if similar claims arent made in the UK, Europe, America etc. What does everyone else think though, especially those who identify as this, do you believe you suffer discrimination in housing/jobs or what not because of being a non-binary?
I'm cuirous what people think here? Do you think theres much credence in these claims or do they rank similarly to claims of other forms of nominal bigotry which are assumed as opposed to actually having any basis in evidence? The case in point being i rather doubt any land lords (bar the completely moronic) have ever expressly told a "non-binary" person that that is the reason they didnt get the flat, well, unless they like being sued
Maybe its just me and my pessimism but it seems like this stems more from people not being able to accept that there is a housing crisis and are looking for ways to blame it on their nominal identity as opposed to basic facts on the ground.
Then again, people dont tend to take well to the more, shall we say, eclectic looking in society (people will always judge a book by its cover after all). It would be rather similar to someone dressing up in drag (or something equally out there) and going to an interview and being surprised as not getting the job.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...l-to-landlords
This person appears female to me, so how will a landlord know they're non-binary to discriminate against them, unless they repeatedly liked to throw into conversation that they're non-binary and be generally hard to deal with. Or if they repeatedly push to be called 'they/them'. We don't know how they behave in real life to judge. They could be obnoxious and hard to deal with for all we know, a landlord always wants easygoing tenants. Also students aren't the richest and most reliable of tenants. Why can't they save for a house deposit instead?
I agree with DiddyDec with their apt term of 'professional victim' for this person.
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#17
(Original post by Joleee)
regarding the article, there's too many holes in it to pick at i could be here all day. 44 percent of trans/non-binary say they have been discrimated against in housing; but that isn't proof of discrimination. like you said, no landlord is going to say 'yeah your application has been denied specially cuz you're queer' unless they're a dumbbell.
regarding the article, there's too many holes in it to pick at i could be here all day. 44 percent of trans/non-binary say they have been discrimated against in housing; but that isn't proof of discrimination. like you said, no landlord is going to say 'yeah your application has been denied specially cuz you're queer' unless they're a dumbbell.
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I'd also add that it presents no control group. For example, 11% of non-binary and trans people have reported being denied a home or apartment. This might be evidence of discrimination, but without a comparison with cis people there's no way of knowing.
I'd also add that it presents no control group. For example, 11% of non-binary and trans people have reported being denied a home or apartment. This might be evidence of discrimination, but without a comparison with cis people there's no way of knowing.
There does seem to be a notable trend in people blaming others for supposed bigotries when Occam's razor would apply though. If you donbt get a house/job/gf/bf etc. blame it on bigots as opposed to the more simple explanations. That isnt to say there arent landlords out there who will deny them based on this trait but, as was pointed out, unless someone screams it from the roof tops (ironically they do tend to do that here when house hunting) its hard to put it down to any (insert 'phobia' here)
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#19
Discrimination is possible but not necessrily confirmable. We have no idea what other factors each individual landlord may look for.
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#20
(Original post by Napp)
The case in point being i rather doubt any land lords (bar the completely moronic) have ever expressly told a "non-binary" person that that is the reason they didnt get the flat, well, unless they like being sued
The case in point being i rather doubt any land lords (bar the completely moronic) have ever expressly told a "non-binary" person that that is the reason they didnt get the flat, well, unless they like being sued
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