Joleee
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#21
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#21
(Original post by legalhelp)
I’m not sure this is quite right, for two reasons. First, the High Court on Friday agreed that a blanket ban on protests would be unlawful, but that whether or not it would be unlawful to restrict a specific protest would come down to whether the restriction was “necessary and proportionate”; that assessment has to come in the first instance from the police. Second, whether or not a particular protest is lawful, and whether or not someone could be properly prosecuted for a breach of the covid regulations (which you mention) are separate questions.
i don't disagree with anything you said. i had assumed atm me and OP were talking specifically about those four who had been arrested and specific individuals 'peacefully protesting' under the law? as you can note i then compared the number of arrests to those who had been arrested in BLM. perhaps i misinterpreted?
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Napp
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(Original post by StriderHort)
Yup, seems obvious the violent presence of the Met in particular would antagonise and alarm resulting in huge media problems,. They've went ahead anyway so that's on them. Funny how every other force did so much better.
I wouldnt call their presence especially violent to be honest. As i said, the optics were poor and the rationale debatable but from the video footage it seems more like they were respnding to bolshie protestors. A pity as most were behaving themselves but when looking at the arrests, they did appear somewhat warrented - shoving (assault) police is a fairly good way to get yourself arrested after all.
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Scotney
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(Original post by Napp)
I wouldnt call their presence especially violent to be honest. As i said, the optics were poor and the rationale debatable but from the video footage it seems more like they were respnding to bolshie protestors. A pity as most were behaving themselves but when looking at the arrests, they did appear somewhat warrented - shoving (assault) police is a fairly good way to get yourself arrested after all.
Given it was only 8.30pm police were premature in their need to disperse crowd.Women wanting to reclaim the right to walk the streets safely at night was a big part of the response to this crime.It is fairly clear from footage that nothing would have turned nasty if they had just kept out of it.At least 3 of the girls detained were doing no pushing or shoving of anyone.
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adam271
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#24
(Original post by Scotney)
Given it was only 8.30pm police were premature in their need to disperse crowd.Women wanting to reclaim the right to walk the streets safely at night was a big part of the response to this crime.It is fairly clear from footage that nothing would have turned nasty if they had just kept out of it.At least 3 of the girls detained were doing no pushing or shoving of anyone.
Did you see the crowd and how tightly packed they were? There was very close if not more than 10,000 people in a very small area. It was an illegal gathering.
In Basildon about 50 people showed up for a anti lockdown protest and like 9 got arrested AND fined.

There was pushing and shoving going along. Along with damage to police property.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFdJMbmX4Hg

There can be no double standards. If it is illegal it is illegal. The fact that women got arrested to me is frankly irrelevant. You either believe in equality or you dont. You cant cherry pick what ways women should be treated differently. No one got outraged when Piers Corbyn got arrested. He's a pensioner in his 70s.
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Scotney
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(Original post by adam271)
Did you see the crowd and how tightly packed they were? There was very close if not more than 10,000 people in a very small area. It was an illegal gathering.
In Basildon about 50 people showed up for a anti lockdown protest and like 9 got arrested AND fined.

There was pushing and shoving going along. Along with damage to police property.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFdJMbmX4Hg

There can be no double standards. If it is illegal it is illegal. The fact that women got arrested to me is frankly irrelevant. You either believe in equality or you dont. You cant cherry pick what ways women should be treated differently. No one got outraged when Piers Corbyn got arrested. He's a pensioner in his 70s.
You have missed the whole point of this protest.Women do not live in an equal world with men.Women do not feel safe because of the behaviour of men.They cannot just happily travel home on public transport or walk the streets in peace.Try talking to women you love and care about.We have all had things done to us by men.
And there were no more than a few hundred people there tops.
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adam271
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#26
(Original post by Scotney)
You have missed the whole point of this protest.Women do not live in an equal world with men.Women do not feel safe because of the behaviour of black men.They cannot just happily travel home on public transport or walk the streets in peace.Try talking to women you love and care about.We have all had things done to us by black men.
And there were no more than a few hundred people there tops.
Watch the video again. There was hundreds at the start. Not when it got dark it kept growing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J3L_frUsGs

I haven't missed the point.
What is the answer then? To dispersing the crowd? Just get all female police officers in to arrest them? It is just not practical.
I dont care about the merit of the cause. If the protest is illegal they shouldnt be there. The Anti lockdown protesters thought their cause was just no one cared when they got arrested and fined.

Also lots of men got arrest in that vigil as well not just women. Should the police only of arrested men at the vigil?

I do sympathise with their cause though. It is a just cause.
As for women not living in a equal world. No one lives in a equal world. Try being a Romani.
The wording of your paragraph is quite amusing though. I edited it a bit. Doesn't sound so good now does it?

Men are the main perpetrators when it comes violence. But they are also the main victims. Actually statisically, if your a young black male your at the greatest risk of being assaulted or killed by another man in the UK.
Saying men is the problem is just not helping. It's like a chicken saying humans are killing us. No farmers are killing you.

Pinpoint the issue and solve it.
But people like to generalise and have catchy quotes that make good newspaper headlines.
Just like with the George Floyd protests. What was the result of blaming all cops for black police violence and discrimination? Not much. Just some symbolic kneeling.

I am all for practical solutions though. Maybe this is a good one.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/577568


As for asking my female family members if they feel safe in the streets. Well to be honest I dont feel safe in the streets. But do they feel safe round me, I am a man after all. Should I not see them anymore so they can be safe. We pointed the finger at men. I am a man. Now as a person who is guilty on behalf of my gender what should I do to solve this issue?

I am not trying be condescending here but I have had stuff stolen off me in the streets. I have been assaulted in the streets. I've been
harassed on a bus.
What is the actionable way to solve this? Fine point the fingers at men as a whole. But now what?

I draw the parrell with race because people have in the past attempted to do the same. I'll link you a news article. It's very similar. Trying to protect women against black men. Ye, they added an extra indentifer in there but the intent is the same.
Name:  5829f651e2ac8.image.jpg
Views: 10
Size:  66.2 KB

I suspect I will get flamed hard for all this but ah well.


FYI: I am not 'pro man' to be honest I think that is just as stupid. Find it idiotic that men are now trying to create a Men day. Then going on about how men need protecting and men dont have as much rights in certain areas.. blah blah. I dont care. Everyone is a victim now. Now you are seeing men upset because they want their share in the victimhood as well.
Then you have the trans community upset because no one is talking about them with some feminists saying they dont count when it comes to violence against women. Everyone is a victim now. It a regression into infantilism and it is tedious..
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Napp
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Scotney)
Given it was only 8.30pm police were premature in their need to disperse crowd.Women wanting to reclaim the right to walk the streets safely at night was a big part of the response to this crime.It is fairly clear from footage that nothing would have turned nasty if they had just kept out of it.At least 3 of the girls detained were doing no pushing or shoving of anyone.
Im not saying the ploddies were in the right, nevermind the dreadful irony of it being the Met that murdered the woman. One interesting point that springs to mind though is the lack of consistency when dealing with protests. Also when advocating for them, seeing certain wuarters defending the right to protest after bashing it in ones earlier in the year is... interesting.
The footage doing the rounds shows otherwise on some of those arrested. It being quite clear the crowd had turned hostile by the time the plods moved in. How much this is down to them hovering like vultures is up for debate though.

At any rate, as i said, a royal shitshow all around.
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Napp
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#28
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#28
(Original post by adam271)
Watch the video again. There was hundreds at the start. Not when it got dark it kept growing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J3L_frUsGs

I haven't missed the point.
What is the answer then? To dispersing the crowd? Just get all female police officers in to arrest them? It is just not practical.
I dont care about the merit of the cause. If the protest is illegal they shouldnt be there. The Anti lockdown protesters thought their cause was just no one cared when they got arrested and fined.

Also lots of men got arrest in that vigil as well not just women. Should the police only of arrested men at the vigil?

I do sympathise with their cause though. It is a just cause.
As for women not living in a equal world. No one lives in a equal world. Try being a Romani.
The wording of your paragraph is quite amusing though. I edited it a bit. Doesn't sound so good now does it?

Men are the main perpetrators when it comes violence. But they are also the main victims. Actually statisically, if your a young black male your at the greatest risk of being assaulted or killed by another man in the UK.
Saying men is the problem is just not helping. It's like a chicken saying humans are killing us. No farmers are killing you.

Pinpoint the issue and solve it.
But people like to generalise and have catchy quotes that make good newspaper headlines.
Just like with the George Floyd protests. What was the result of blaming all cops for black police violence and discrimination? Not much. Just some symbolic kneeling.

I am all for practical solutions though. Maybe this is a good one.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/577568


As for asking my female family members if they feel safe in the streets. Well to be honest I dont feel safe in the streets. But do they feel safe round me, I am a man after all. Should I not see them anymore so they can be safe. We pointed the finger at men. I am a man. Now as a person who is guilty on behalf of my gender what should I do to solve this issue?

I am not trying be condescending here but I have had stuff stolen off me in the streets. I have been assaulted in the streets. I've been
harassed on a bus.
What is the actionable way to solve this? Fine point the fingers at men as a whole. But now what?

I draw the parrell with race because people have in the past attempted to do the same. I'll link you a news article. It's very similar. Trying to protect women against black men. Ye, they added an extra indentifer in there but the intent is the same.
Name:  5829f651e2ac8.image.jpg
Views: 10
Size:  66.2 KB

I suspect I will get flamed hard for all this but ah well.


FYI: I am not 'pro man' to be honest I think that is just as stupid. Find it idiotic that men are now trying to create a Men day. Then going on about how men need protecting and men dont have as much rights in certain areas.. blah blah. I dont care. Everyone is a victim now. Now you are seeing men upset because they want their share in the victimhood as well.
Then you have the trans community upset because no one is talking about them with some feminists saying they dont count when it comes to violence against women. Everyone is a victim now. It a regression into infantilism and it is tedious..
Just on the bit where you noted the interesting double standards being used. Couldnt agree more. With some of these statements being uttered that all men are to blame (naturally in meme form) i forget the exact wording but it was something along the lines of 'not all men do this' followed by 'well it was one of you'. Leaving the ethics of the topic aside for a second i do find the dubious double standards being employed to be rather intriguing. After all, this exact argument has been put forward in terms of violence in the black community and those who said it are promptly cyber lynched as worse than Hitler by 'progressives'. It's amusing that theyre now using exactly the same logic even if they do qualify it with "but its totally different". Either the argument stands or it doesnt, id be curious to see if they kee up the pretense of it or admit that its grossly bigoted.
What happened to this woman was an affront to us all and a damning indictment of violence against women but the response from some quarters (like that revolting priviliged green lord) rather demonstrates the lack of morals all round when people hijack a tragedy like this to push perverse identity politics at the expense of a genuine problem.
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adam271
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#29
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#29
I remember a few years ago about the outrage at the simple acknowledgment that men were physically stronger than women.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...onger-than-men
https://www.thesun.ie/fabulous/34101...study-reveals/


Seems odd that many women are now embracing it.
Maybe the answer is for women to start working out and doing roids.

If we really wanna go down equality street. I am personally outraged that women live longer than men. How is that right. If we compare the average life expectancy of men to women it is signifcant. Now if we do some more suedo statistical calculations we can no doubt deduce that for every 12 women they have a combined exta life expectancy of a entire males life span.

Why is this? Men work more physcially demanding jobs for one. Why is that fair? We are dying earlier for it. The loss in life span is statisically far more signicant then about 200 female deaths in the UK each year, however tragic.
There are 33 million women in the UK. If each lives on average 6 years longer than men than that is an extra one hundred ninety-eight million years in extra life span. That is just sexist.

Ok I am definately being inconsiderate to the topic at hand. I do think this issue should be tackled. I just want action not platitudes,
truisms and other pointless rhetoric.
I think this meme sums up my feelings on it.
Image
.
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Scotney
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#30
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#30
(Original post by adam271)
I remember a few years ago about the outrage at the simple acknowledgment that men were physically stronger than women.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...onger-than-men
https://www.thesun.ie/fabulous/34101...study-reveals/


Seems odd that many women are now embracing it.
Maybe the answer is for women to start working out and doing roids.

If we really wanna go down equality street. I am personally outraged that women live longer than men. How is that right. If we compare the average life expectancy of men to women it is signifcant. Now if we do some more suedo statistical calculations we can no doubt deduce that for every 12 women they have a combined exta life expectancy of a entire males life span.

Why is this? Men work more physcially demanding jobs for one. Why is that fair? We are dying earlier for it. The loss in life span is statisically far more signicant then about 200 female deaths in the UK each year, however tragic.
There are 33 million women in the UK. If each lives on average 6 years longer than men than that is an extra one hundred ninety-eight million years in extra life span. That is just sexist.

Ok I am definately being inconsiderate to the topic at hand. I do think this issue should be tackled. I just want action not platitudes,
truisms and other pointless rhetoric.
I think this meme sums up my feelings on it.
Image
.
I feel you are uninterested in understanding this debate. All men can play their part in solving this problem.There is a huge problem in attitudes towards women from men. You are in a position to call this out when you see and hear it. However you yourself seem very angry towards women. Why is that?
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adam271
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#31
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(Original post by Scotney)
I feel you are uninterested in understanding this debate. All men can play their part in solving this problem.There is a huge problem in attitudes towards women from men. You are in a position to call this out when you see and hear it. However you yourself seem very angry towards women. Why is that?
Im not angry towards women. I think the vigil should of went ahead. I think it is a worthwhile goal.
My main issue is the practical issues in solving it.

Lets tackle some that have been suggested by parliment or campaigners.

6pm curfew for men proposed in the House of Lords:
I think this is a stupid idea. I think most women agree on this.

Undercover police in nightclubs:
Well, this is just a disaster waiting to happen. How long before a police officer gets caught with his trousers around his ankles.

I like the idea of bringing back night street lighting. It would be interesting to if the torys cutting off street lights at night had an impact on attacks.

Personal defence weapons such as mace:
Im all for this. Although, I suspect it opens up the possiblity for criminals to get hold of this stuff easier as well.


If there is a clear goal to stop these attacks happening I am all for it. The main issue though is attacks at home. This is hard to solve. My solution would be to recognise that most perpetrators who attack their children or spouses often have a history of it.
What needs to change is that if someone is convicted of domestic violence then they have to go behind bars. No more fines, probation straight in prison.
Here are some of the charges that I think need to change.

Common assault – a fine to up to 26 weeks’ custody
Actual Bodily Harm (ABH) – community order to a maximum of 5 years’ custody
Harassment without violence – fine to a maximum of 6 months’ custody
Harassment (putting people in fear of violence) – fine to a maximum of 5 years’ custody

Fines are not good enough, neither is a community order.
Also anyone who has commited a violent crime should have to be put on a register and have to by law declare it to a partner. Failure to do so should lead to prosecution.


As for the attitude towards women. I have sympathy with you on it. I agree it is wrong. I personally dont participate in it but it does exist and is a problem.
But what is the answer? For example. I'll talk about situations I have had.
Male co-workers talking about how they think a female co-worker is fit and what they want to do to her.
Fellow Male students talking about other female students/teachers in a sexual manner.
Now I could report this but there would be no proof just my word. Maybe the female in question would not like to know that people who are respectful to her when talking to her are actually quite rude about her in private conversations.
I dont know the answer.
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Scotney
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#32
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#32
(Original post by adam271)
Im not angry towards women. I think the vigil should of went ahead. I think it is a worthwhile goal.
My main issue is the practical issues in solving it.

Lets tackle some that have been suggested by parliment or campaigners.

6pm curfew for men proposed in the House of Lords:
I think this is a stupid idea. I think most women agree on this.

Undercover police in nightclubs:
Well, this is just a disaster waiting to happen. How long before a police officer gets caught with his trousers around his ankles.

I like the idea of bringing back night street lighting. It would be interesting to if the torys cutting off street lights at night had an impact on attacks.

Personal defence weapons such as mace:
Im all for this. Although, I suspect it opens up the possiblity for criminals to get hold of this stuff easier as well.


If there is a clear goal to stop these attacks happening I am all for it. The main issue though is attacks at home. This is hard to solve. My solution would be to recognise that most perpetrators who attack their children or spouses often have a history of it.
What needs to change is that if someone is convicted of domestic violence then they have to go behind bars. No more fines, probation straight in prison.
Here are some of the charges that I think need to change.

Common assault – a fine to up to 26 weeks’ custody
Actual Bodily Harm (ABH) – community order to a maximum of 5 years’ custody
Harassment without violence – fine to a maximum of 6 months’ custody
Harassment (putting people in fear of violence) – fine to a maximum of 5 years’ custody

Fines are not good enough, neither is a community order.
Also anyone who has commited a violent crime should have to be put on a register and have to by law declare it to a partner. Failure to do so should lead to prosecution.


As for the attitude towards women. I have sympathy with you on it. I agree it is wrong. I personally dont participate in it but it does exist and is a problem.
But what is the answer? For example. I'll talk about situations I have had.
Male co-workers talking about how they think a female co-worker is fit and what they want to do to her.
Fellow Male students talking about other female students/teachers in a sexual manner.
Now I could report this but there would be no proof just my word. Maybe the female in question would not like to know that people who are respectful to her when talking to her are actually quite rude about her in private conversations.
I dont know the answer.
Agree with a lot of your conclusions.
Lighting is definitely a factor. We have new low emission lighting but can no longer see the ruddy pavement let alone possible assailants in dark corners.
The undercover police well surely more uniformed police or marshalls would be more useful.
I guess maybe men could actually tackle the co-workers/fellow students themselves about their misogynistic remarks but it would involve companies/unis having a zero tolerance policy. In fact it will involve society itself having a zero tolerance policy. I guess this is the whole point of having the conversation that is being had right now so maybe some solutions may be found. I would start in schools very early working on developing respect for others regardless of sex or race.
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adam271
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Scotney)
Agree with a lot of your conclusions.
Lighting is definitely a factor. We have new low emission lighting but can no longer see the ruddy pavement let alone possible assailants in dark corners.
The undercover police well surely more uniformed police or marshalls would be more useful.
I guess maybe men could actually tackle the co-workers/fellow students themselves about their misogynistic remarks but it would involve companies/unis having a zero tolerance policy. In fact it will involve society itself having a zero tolerance policy. I guess this is the whole point of having the conversation that is being had right now so maybe some solutions may be found. I would start in schools very early working on developing respect for others regardless of sex or race.
Would you want to be told if someone said something sexual about you in private conversation?
I've always assumed that women would rather not know.
I also know that women have these types of conversations as well. Although, probably not as much.
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Scotney
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#34
(Original post by adam271)
Would you want to be told if someone said something sexual about you in private conversation?
I've always assumed that women would rather not know.
I also know that women have these types of conversations as well. Although, probably not as much.
I more mean you might tell your male co worker to knock it off rather than inform the woman. If someone was putting down or gossiping about a friend of yours would you not say they are a friend of mine so I am not down with this conversation. I would and have. I have also called out racist behaviour and comments but did not tell the person being discussed as it would hurt their feelings.
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Genaro_
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#35
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I'm not entirely convinced that the police were entirely in the wrong. I'm sure there was some provocative behaviour from the protest.
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caravaggio2
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#36
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"Undercover police in nightclubs:
Well, this is just a disaster waiting to happen"

Has there ever been a better example of a government reaching for more ridiculous measures to appear on top of a situation.
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