deargvtsby
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I got an offer and was wondering if it’s a good place to do law. I’ve been told that it’s pretty bad as a uni in general but quite good at things like business and such.
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A Rolling Stone
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(Original post by deargvtsby)
I got an offer and was wondering if it’s a good place to do law. I’ve been told that it’s pretty bad as a uni in general but quite good at things like business and such.
it's all relative. it's better than no degree at all. what other uni options do you have?
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henry1999
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If your intention is to become a lawyer, no. There is an enormous law student glut in Britain (there are 70,000 law students in Britain but only 2,500 training contracts) this has allowed law firms to be significantly more selective than they could be thirty years ago; this has primarily manifested in their strong preference for law students with strong commercial awareness. Commercial awareness training is almost exclusively provided at Russell Group universities- hence, they have a strong preference for Russell Group graduates.

This is why, when Chambers Students conducted research into this topic, they found that 75% of the trainees recruited by the leading 139 law firms had graduated from Russell Group universities. It is this phenomenon that leads to only 5,000 of the 70,000 students that study law in Britain becoming qualified lawyers. Frankly, the majority of students starting law degrees outside of RG universities do not stand a realistic chance of becoming lawyers.

You must have good grades to be looking at this course so, unless you have an acute academic interest in law, then I would recommend you use those grades to study a less over-saturated course at a Russell Group where you can get the commercial awareness training you'd need to become a lawyer. You can then apply as a non-law student for a training contract: you'll have to take a GDL which includes a very intense year of catch up but you'll stand a much better chance of breaking into the industry.

Many students are unaware you can get into lawyer without a law degree but for many, it will be significantly easier to get a training contract this way.

P.S. as somebody who is surrounded by lawyers (my partner and my parents are lawyers), I advise you to avoid this industry completely: it isn't what it's cracked out to be; don't get fooled by its prestige.

Edit: When I say 'lawyer', I mean a commercial lawyer. Additionally, your ability to become any kind of lawyer is going to be significantly impacted by your ability to afford an LPC/GDL- the TCs referenced here would fund your LPC. After all, it's no good being able to get a TC if you can't afford your LPC/GDL.
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xAnbesix
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(Original post by henry1999)
If your intention is to become a lawyer, no. There is an enormous law student glut in Britain (there are 70,000 law students in Britain but only 2,500 training contracts) this has allowed law firms to be significantly more selective than they could be thirty years ago; this has primarily manifested in their strong preference for law students with strong commercial awareness. Commercial awareness training is almost exclusively provided at Russell Group universities- hence, they have a strong preference for Russell Group graduates.

This is why, when Chambers Students conducted research into this topic, they found that 75% of the trainees recruited by the leading 139 law firms had graduated from Russell Group universities. It is this phenomenon that leads to only 5,000 of the 70,000 students that study law in Britain becoming qualified lawyers. Frankly, the majority of students starting law degrees outside of RG universities do not stand a realistic chance of becoming lawyers.

You must have good grades to be looking at this course so, unless you have an acute academic interest in law, then I would recommend you use those grades to study a less over-saturated course at a Russell Group where you can get the commercial awareness training you'd need to become a lawyer. You can then apply as a non-law student for a training contract: you'll have to take a GDL which includes a very intense year of catch up but you'll stand a much better chance of breaking into the industry.

Many students are unaware you can get into lawyer without a law degree but for many, it will be significantly easier to get a training contract this way.

P.S. as somebody who is surrounded by lawyers (my partner and my parents are lawyers), I advise you to avoid this industry completely: it isn't what it's cracked out to be; don't get fooled by its prestige.
What's wrong with the law industry, if you don't mind me asking?
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chalbliagtelle
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(Original post by xAnbesix)
What's wrong with the law industry, if you don't mind me asking?
there's lots of problems although very few of these are actually unique to law. it can be elitist, cutthroat, and getting into it is incredibly intense. the recruitment process is incredibly long, sometimes discriminatory (although firms are getting better), and there is always an element of nepotism where you'll find it much easier to get in if you have contacts (e.g. someone in your family is a lawyer). once you are in, the hours can be long and really unrewarding and a lot of people find they have no passion for the work, which is extremely different to what you have on a law degree and not the standing up for the little guy human rights thing you see in movies.

conversely though, things are no different in ib/consulting/any other 'prestigious' career, and the complaints about things like long hours is a feature of only a very select group of firms. out of the thousands of firms in the UK, people tend to focus mostly on what the top 50 look like - high street law is a very different landscape to city law. similarly city law places are incredibly competitive and people genuinely tearing their hair out over not getting a training contract and refuse to enter into any other career can create a pretty stressful environment I can see why a lot of people want to avoid it, the industry has its problems, but the same can be said of quite a lot of different careers. i think the universities like bpp are worse than the industry, or at the least more exploitative. if you apply to freshfields you know what you're getting into.
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EU Yakov
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it's pretty crap tbh. why would you want to go there.

(Original post by henry1999)
If your intention is to become a lawyer, no. There is an enormous law student glut in Britain (there are 70,000 law students in Britain but only 2,500 training contracts) this has allowed law firms to be significantly more selective than they could be thirty years ago; this has primarily manifested in their strong preference for law students with strong commercial awareness. Commercial awareness training is almost exclusively provided at Russell Group universities- hence, they have a strong preference for Russell Group graduates.

This is why, when Chambers Students conducted research into this topic, they found that 75% of the trainees recruited by the leading 139 law firms had graduated from Russell Group universities. It is this phenomenon that leads to only 5,000 of the 70,000 students that study law in Britain becoming qualified lawyers. Frankly, the majority of students starting law degrees outside of RG universities do not stand a realistic chance of becoming lawyers.

You must have good grades to be looking at this course so, unless you have an acute academic interest in law, then I would recommend you use those grades to study a less over-saturated course at a Russell Group where you can get the commercial awareness training you'd need to become a lawyer. You can then apply as a non-law student for a training contract: you'll have to take a GDL which includes a very intense year of catch up but you'll stand a much better chance of breaking into the industry.

Many students are unaware you can get into lawyer without a law degree but for many, it will be significantly easier to get a training contract this way.

P.S. as somebody who is surrounded by lawyers (my partner and my parents are lawyers), I advise you to avoid this industry completely: it isn't what it's cracked out to be; don't get fooled by its prestige.
lol at you thinking that RG unis necessarily have the best applicants for these jobs. your average lawyer job is a job in a small firm with a few offices. doesnt require amazing intellect

what kind of firm do your partner and parents work in?
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Johnny ~
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(Original post by henry1999)
If your intention is to become a lawyer, no. There is an enormous law student glut in Britain (there are 70,000 law students in Britain but only 2,500 training contracts) this has allowed law firms to be significantly more selective than they could be thirty years ago; this has primarily manifested in their strong preference for law students with strong commercial awareness. Commercial awareness training is almost exclusively provided at Russell Group universities- hence, they have a strong preference for Russell Group graduates.

This is why, when Chambers Students conducted research into this topic, they found that 75% of the trainees recruited by the leading 139 law firms had graduated from Russell Group universities. It is this phenomenon that leads to only 5,000 of the 70,000 students that study law in Britain becoming qualified lawyers. Frankly, the majority of students starting law degrees outside of RG universities do not stand a realistic chance of becoming lawyers.

You must have good grades to be looking at this course so, unless you have an acute academic interest in law, then I would recommend you use those grades to study a less over-saturated course at a Russell Group where you can get the commercial awareness training you'd need to become a lawyer. You can then apply as a non-law student for a training contract: you'll have to take a GDL which includes a very intense year of catch up but you'll stand a much better chance of breaking into the industry.

Many students are unaware you can get into lawyer without a law degree but for many, it will be significantly easier to get a training contract this way.

P.S. as somebody who is surrounded by lawyers (my partner and my parents are lawyers), I advise you to avoid this industry completely: it isn't what it's cracked out to be; don't get fooled by its prestige.
The numbers are completely off in this post.

There are around 37,000 students who enrolled into their first year of a law or a law-related undergraduate degree in 2019/2020. Counting all of the students irrespective of year ignores the fact that they won't be entering the labour market in one go. https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-anal...ts/what-study#

More damningly, there were only around 23,000 law graduates in 2019/2020. https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-anal...dents/outcomes

The Law Society claims that "students graduating with degrees in law from universities in England and Wales continued to rise in 2019 to 16,499 and 72.8% graduated with a first or upper second degree". So only 12,000 of the E&W law grads got the good honours that are practically required for the better training positions to begin with.

Obviously, the numbers of law students don't really matter, as many law students don't want to go into law and many non-law students do end up wanting to go into law. So that muddies the waters a lot.

Regarding training contracts: 5,811 training contracts were registered in the full year to July 2018, and 6,344 training contracts were registered in the full year to July 2019. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/en/top...cs-report-2018 and https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/en/top...cs-report-2019.

Edit: There is a lot wrong with what you're saying (what "commercial awareness training"? since when does a poorly done Chambers Student survey amount to "research"?) but I've allowed myself 10 minutes for this post and I've already exceeded that!
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henry1999
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(Original post by Johnny ~)
The numbers are completely off in this post.

There are around 37,000 students who enrolled into their first year of a law or a law-related undergraduate degree in 2019/2020. Counting all of the students irrespective of year ignores the fact that they won't be entering the labour market in one go. https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-anal...ts/what-study#

More damningly, there were only around 23,000 law graduates in 2019/2020. https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-anal...dents/outcomes

The Law Society claims that "students graduating with degrees in law from universities in England and Wales continued to rise in 2019 to 16,499 and 72.8% graduated with a first or upper second degree". So only 12,000 of the E&W law grads got the good honours that are practically required for the better training positions to begin with.

Obviously, the numbers of law students don't really matter, as many law students don't want to go into law and many non-law students do end up wanting to go into law. So that muddies the waters a lot.

Regarding training contracts: 5,811 training contracts were registered in the full year to July 2018, and 6,344 training contracts were registered in the full year to July 2019. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/en/top...cs-report-2018 and https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/en/top...cs-report-2019.

Edit: There is a lot wrong with what you're saying (what "commercial awareness training"? since when does a poorly done Chambers Student survey amount to "research"?) but I've allowed myself 10 minutes for this post and I've already exceeded that!
Firstly, there is no need to be rude. I am only trying to help.

Many of the opinions are derived from the former chair of Hogan Lovells, the head of strategic relations at the Law Society, the dean of City Law School FT article: https://www.ft.com/content/a872e1cb-...5-111c3846089d

The rest is from here:

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/40...105248.article

https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/wh...versities-2019

What leads you to believe that this Chambers Student research was "poorly done", I presume your issue is with the methodology?

I'm also baffled by why you seem quite so angered by what I've said when we seem to have come to the same conclusion. If you weren't so impertinent I'd be inclined to thank you for pointing out a couple of errors I made. I low-key still am but it's difficult to be so when you've been quite so gratuitously aggressive.
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Johnny ~
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(Original post by henry1999)
Firstly, there is no need to be rude. I am only trying to help.

Many of the opinions are derived from the former chair of Hogan Lovells, the head of strategic relations at the Law Society, the dean of City Law School FT article: https://www.ft.com/content/a872e1cb-...5-111c3846089d

The rest is from here:

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/40...105248.article

https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/wh...versities-2019

What leads you to believe that this Chambers Student research was "poorly done", I presume your issue is with the methodology?

I'm also baffled by why you seem quite so angered by what I've said when we seem to have come to the same conclusion. If you weren't so impertinent I'd be inclined to thank you for pointing out a couple of errors I made. I low-key still am but it's difficult to be so when you've been quite so gratuitously aggressive.
The Law Gazette article used the correct average number for training contracts and qualifiers (5,757 and 5,407 respectively) but you wrote 5,000 in your post, which is a pretty big rounding error. Also, why did you use a 9-year average when the number of TCs has recovered since the GFC?

We haven't come to the same conclusion. Our numbers are completely different. You said 70,000 law students for 5,000 spots on qualification. The more relevant ratio (which is in itself misleading) is c.23,000 law graduates for c.6,300 training contracts a year.

If you looked at the number of applications received per TC offer, you'd have realised that law firms are nowhere near as competitive as you made them out to appear. Large firms may get something like 50 applications per place (not offer, the offer rate is higher), which isn't that bad compared to other graduate employers. The most competitive I've heard from the City is 100:1 for some of the US firms and for firms with smaller intakes, such as the ones in the charts in this post: https://www.thecorporatelawacademy.c...he-2018-guide/.

Not all law firms are commercial law firms and are therefore surveyed by Chambers Student. You're focusing on the elite for no reason when OP, with his Middlesex degree, may have no issue with paralegalling for a few years and then getting a TC at a smaller local firm. Why are you assuming that OP wants to become a commercial lawyer in the first place?

As for the issues with CS as a survey, read: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6247090.

You implied that going to one of these universities would "get the OP the training they need". This is wrong. The best-represented universities - the top RGs that people like you obsess over - do not offer commercial awareness training as a part of their law course. Their careers services or law societies may arrange for seminars on this but this is independent of the faculty and completely optional to attend. More importantly, commercial awareness is something that anyone can develop irrespective of the university they attended. There is more than enough material online (Investopedia, Finimize, the Chris Stoakes books, various newspapers, sites like Littlelaw/TBU, you get the idea) to cover everything that can come up at an assessment centre.
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Gmaster1980
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(Original post by henry1999)
Firstly, there is no need to be rude. I am only trying to help.

Many of the opinions are derived from the former chair of Hogan Lovells, the head of strategic relations at the Law Society, the dean of City Law School FT article: https://www.ft.com/content/a872e1cb-...5-111c3846089d

The rest is from here:

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/40...105248.article

https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/wh...versities-2019

What leads you to believe that this Chambers Student research was "poorly done", I presume your issue is with the methodology?

I'm also baffled by why you seem quite so angered by what I've said when we seem to have come to the same conclusion. If you weren't so impertinent I'd be inclined to thank you for pointing out a couple of errors I made. I low-key still am but it's difficult to be so when you've been quite so gratuitously aggressive.
As a trainee who has spent a ton of time debunking misleading information about how hard it is to get a TC, I don't see why you expect someone to be polite when you post wrong information...
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EU Yakov
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(Original post by henry1999)
Firstly, there is no need to be rude. I am only trying to help.

Many of the opinions are derived from the former chair of Hogan Lovells, the head of strategic relations at the Law Society, the dean of City Law School FT article: https://www.ft.com/content/a872e1cb-...5-111c3846089d

The rest is from here:

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/40...105248.article

https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/wh...versities-2019

What leads you to believe that this Chambers Student research was "poorly done", I presume your issue is with the methodology?

I'm also baffled by why you seem quite so angered by what I've said when we seem to have come to the same conclusion. If you weren't so impertinent I'd be inclined to thank you for pointing out a couple of errors I made. I low-key still am but it's difficult to be so when you've been quite so gratuitously aggressive.
dude your own link says that 60% of those who do the LPC get TCs. 6 in 10 sounds like a pretty good ratio. also your ft link talks about elite firms and universities. middlesex isnt a uni where ppl aim for elite firms. theyre more likely to want to work at a firm like this https://sethi.co.uk/careers/.
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Proxenus
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yes
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