"Kill the Bill" protest becomes a riot

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JOSH4598
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#61
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#61
(Original post by DiddyDec)
Can you see into the mind of every protester and rioter to determine their intent?

Protesters come in many forms some are peaceful like XR, others are violent like the Poll Tax riots. You can't "No True Scotsman" this.
Well if they had peaceful intentions they didn't do a very good job expressing them yesterday. I would go so far as saying they're not protestors, they're thugs. There are so many great ways to show your opposition to certain proposals - putting police officers in A&E isn't one of them.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
In this specific context, no it is not as black and white as you have made it out to be. True corporations can't fine or arrest you.

They can however work with other companies to destroy you via other means including getting you banned from platforms, getting you fired from your job via doxxing, taking away things like access to payment sites and domain registrars etc which is often coordinated with state apparatus.

Liberal democracies have learnt that overt repressive policies are costly and unpopular and have outsourced this to friendly private corporations.
In this context, the fact that corporations can't fine or arrest you makes makes this pretty black and white. Being banned from various platforms is not comparable to being put in prison.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Why are you continually trying to justify (once again) the criminal actions of your left wing chums because it doesn’t suit your beliefs? Laughable pal, laughable!
I hypothesise that you won't the answer the questions because undermines your position. If you say that being an annoyance is violence then you end up looking like the soft lefties that you so vehemently hate. But if you agree that it isn't violence then you must concede that the bill aims at curtailing peaceful protest.

Quite the predicament for you.

Just so we are all on the same page, I'm centrist
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by JOSH4598)
Well if they had peaceful intentions they didn't do a very good job expressing them yesterday. I would go so far as saying they're not protestors, they're thugs. There are so many great ways to show your opposition to certain proposals - putting police officers in A&E isn't one of them.
There were many "Kill the Bill" protests that occured around the country without any violence at all in fact that is how the Bristol one started and if it had stayed that way you probably wouldn't have even heard about them unless you read your local paper.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
I hypothesise that you won't the answer the questions because undermines your position. If you say that being an annoyance is violence then you end up looking like the soft lefties that you so vehemently hate. But if you agree that it isn't violence then you must concede that the bill aims at curtailing peaceful protest.

Quite the predicament for you.

Just so we are all on the same page, I'm centrist
I get the impression that they just want to one-up the left with this bill, since they'll be the ones most affected by it. Clearly all principles have been thrown out the window, although I don't know if there were any to begin with.
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JOSH4598
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#66
(Original post by DiddyDec)
There were many "Kill the Bill" protests that occured around the country without any violence at all in fact that is how the Bristol one started and if it had stayed that way you probably wouldn't have even heard about them unless you read your local paper.
That's an absurd point - "if" it had remained peaceful is irrelevant. The fact is that the protest descended into violence aimed at police officers. That's why the demonstration in Bristol hit the news and that's why the scenes there were deplorable.

I wouldn't even attempt to defend the actions of those in attendance yesterday. As I said, if they truly wanted to resist the new bill, they could have done so without putting police officers in A&E.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I get the impression that they just want to one-up the left with this bill, since they'll be the ones most affected by it. Clearly all principles have been thrown out the window, although I don't know if there were any to begin with.
Judging by some of the predictable responses on this thread that does certainly seem to be the case. Although Priti Patel has voiced her opposition to protest and accountable on numerous occasions. Given a chance I'm sure she would happily do away with protest entirely.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by JOSH4598)
That's an absurd point - "if" it had remained peaceful is irrelevant. The fact is that the protest descended into violence aimed at police officers. That's why the demonstration in Bristol hit the news and that's why the scenes there were deplorable.

I wouldn't even attempt to defend the actions of those in attendance yesterday. As I said, if they truly wanted to resist the new bill, they could have done so without putting police officers in A&E.
They could have just stayed at home made a petition maybe and let authoritarianism have its way with them. At what point do you think the people should rebel violently or should they always do as they are told?
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JOSH4598
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
They could have just stayed at home made a petition maybe and let authoritarianism have its way with them. At what point do you think the people should rebel violently or should they always do as they are told?
I'm in two minds as to whether you're trolling or not. However having seen your presence on here I believe not and it appears you really are defending the indefensible!

If those who object to the new bill can only do so through animalistic violence, then maybe there is no valid objection to it after all.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by JOSH4598)
I'm in two minds as to whether you're trolling or not. However having seen your presence on here I believe not and it appears you really are defending the indefensible!

If those who object to the new bill can only do so through animalistic violence, then maybe there is no valid objection to it after all.
I don't troll.

As I have already said only one of the many around the country turned violent so clearly it is not the only way to object.
The bill does not criminalise violent protest, that is already illegal. So how does curtailing peaceful protest stop violent protest?

Do you think that citizens should always do as they are told?
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Starship Trooper
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SHallowvale DiddyDec

As I said the Right is adopting a 'its ok when we do it' attitude.

That's why I'm the only one that's able to give s coherent answer I'm not bound by the 'invisible handcuffs' of needing to appear reasonable to the modern left, which lets face it is always going to call Tories fascist etc
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
SHallowvale DiddyDec

As I said the Right is adopting a 'its ok when we do it' attitude.

That's why I'm the only one that's able to give s coherent answer I'm not bound by the 'invisible handcuffs' of needing to appear reasonable to the modern left, which lets face it is always going to call Tories fascist etc
I have a lot of respect for you despite being authoritarian and near enough diametrically opposed to my position, you do not attempt to obfuscate your views.

I don't support much of what the modern left go in for such as their strange wokery of double standards. I certainly wouldn't call Tories fascist because they fundamentally aren't by any reasonable measure. One can be authoritarian without being fascist.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
I have a lot of respect for you despite being authoritarian and near enough diametrically opposed to my position, you do not attempt to obfuscate your views.

I don't support much of what the modern left go in for such as their strange wokery of double standards.

I certainly wouldn't call Tories fascist because they fundamentally aren't by any reasonable measure.

One can be authoritarian without being fascist.
PRSOM

Agreed, I also have respect for you and others like anarchism101 who are able to have Interesting and fair conversations despite disagreeing on pretty much everything. Rather than try and be a blairite and police the overton window.

Sure but the left has been taken over by a more forceful and vocal minority.

I'm not so sure about that. I think there is an element of proto fascism to the Tory Party and indeed most right wing parties. Equally there is an element of Communism in most left wing parties whether they realise it or not.

Indeed. I don't consider myself fascist as it happens but Im not overly bothered if that's what people want to call me.
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IanDangerously
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
"suffers serious distress, serious annoyance, serious inconvenience or serious loss of amenity"

That is not the language of violence. Would you accuse someone of violence if they annoyed or inconvenienced you?

I can’t see the new laws affecting proper peaceful protests that much because the majority of them don’t actually cause any of those things.

We have protests in the city centre here all the time and they’re generally well policed and held in an area where the public aren’t disrupted. Thousands of people stream past it going shopping and drinking on a Saturday and nobody bats an eyelid. At the very worst it might be easier to walk the next block rather than getting through a march but that’s mildly irritating.

I think the “serious” part is the key word. Protesters are still free to cause as much apathy and mild annoyance as they usually would. This just prevents people going too far with it, which doesn’t happen that often anyway.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
SHallowvale DiddyDec

As I said the Right is adopting a 'its ok when we do it' attitude.

That's why I'm the only one that's able to give s coherent answer I'm not bound by the 'invisible handcuffs' of needing to appear reasonable to the modern left, which lets face it is always going to call Tories fascist etc
I'm well aware that your beliefs aren't reasonable.

I'd consider myself part of the modern left but I don't think I've ever called the Conservatives fascists, nor would I want to.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by IanDangerously)
I can’t see the new laws affecting proper peaceful protests that much because the majority of them don’t actually cause any of those things.

We have protests in the city centre here all the time and they’re generally well policed and held in an area where the public aren’t disrupted. Thousands of people stream past it going shopping and drinking on a Saturday and nobody bats an eyelid. At the very worst it might be easier to walk the next block rather than getting through a march but that’s mildly irritating.

I think the “serious” part is the key word. Protesters are still free to cause as much apathy and mild annoyance as they usually would. This just prevents people going too far with it, which doesn’t happen that often anyway.
What is a "proper" protest in your opinion?

It also limits the amount of noise that a protest is allowed to generate so while they may be off to one side they must also not be too noisy in case someone gets "alarmed" or "distressed" by it.

You would think this was written by the NUS when trying to enforce "Jazz hands".
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Ascend
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
The left again want to have their cake and eat it. At least I'm honest enough to say I support cracking down on left wing protests and using kid gloves for right wing ones 😂
"At least", yes. That you are honest about a lack of principle is a low bar and doesn't put you above the standards of the opposing tribe.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I'm well aware that your beliefs aren't reasonable.

I'd consider myself part of the modern left but I don't think I've ever called the Conservatives fascists, nor would I want to.
Reasonable to who? You? No, of course not. To others maybe. Politics to some degree is inevitably about excluding people and ideas. Politics that appeals to everyone is politics that appeals to no one.
As I said to that Antifa troll guy even if everyone was "reasonable" (they're not) why should we be if it doesn't work to our personal advantage?
History is full of weak groups crying for the strong to be reasonable only to turn the tables once they're in power.

How wonderful for you. But it's irrelevant.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Ascend)
"At least", yes. That you are honest about a lack of principle is a low bar and doesn't put you above the standards of the opposing tribe.
Whose principle? And what principle?

Why should I respect principles that I don't like or believe in?

I have absolutely no loyalty to your principles of the lefts generally. I have very strong principles when it comes to my own beliefs, of which appealing to liberals isn't one of them.

That's the dumbest thing ever it's like s Thatcherite saying
Communists have absolutely no principles when it comes to respecting the free market
😂😂😂
Last edited by Starship Trooper; 4 weeks ago
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Yukikobestgirl
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Insane to think that this is even being discussed. The fact this policing bill has came after a woman was murdered by an officer is insane.

I don't know enough about the protest today to give a clear answer, many of the sources I use claim the police instigated which I can believe as most videos I see seem very one sided. However I do mostly use left leaning sources so that may be biased.
What is very worrying is many mainstream media outlets talking about the riots but not why they're happening. This isn't surprising however it is very very concerning.
Then again I say this as someone who has been distrusful of the police for years after learning their involvement in the Toxteth Riots as well as the Hilsborough cover up, both of which had a significant impact on my city.
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