Recent mass shootings in the U.S.

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QE2
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Napp)
given the state of the government i almost sympathise with the militia wingnuts these days :lol:
So you've finally come out in support of the Jan 6 Insurrection.
Good for you!
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DiddyDec
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#22
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(Original post by QE2)
Indeed. The principle of "do not try to enforce a law that people might use violence to break" is a well-established and rational one.
The US is not a particularly rational place, they let citizens have anti material rifles in the first place. When it comes to US law I try not to apply reason or logic because there often is none.
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QE2
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#23
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(Original post by Foxehh)
Not really sure what's expected in a country with more guns in circulation than people.
Erm, regular mass shootings and one of the highest firearm homicide rates in the world, perhaps?

Every few years international media picks up a particularly tragic shooting and runs with it while Americans sit back unphased.
Not quite. There are always widespread protests and condemnations in the US. The majority of Americans are in favour of much stricter gun control. Unfortunately there does not usually seem to be a similar political will.
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QE2
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#24
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(Original post by IanDangerously)
The best they can do is to ban future sales and make resale of those weapons illegal. Of course the people who already have them now and want to keep them would just hide them the way criminals in the UK do if they were made illegal to possess so that wouldn’t really change much.
I've never understood the "Making it illegal won't help because criminals will still have them" argument. Most mass shootings and homicides use legally held guns and few are committed by criminals on civilians. The proponents seem to be saying that if 0 deaths is not possible it is better to have 1000 deaths than 500.
Also, why don't they apply the same argument to drugs?
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Fullofsurprises
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#25
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#25
(Original post by DiddyDec)
The US is not a particularly rational place, they let citizens have anti material rifles in the first place. When it comes to US law I try not to apply reason or logic because there often is none.
We shouldn't attribute it all to some kind of bizarre American irrationality though. There are actually powerful lobbies behind the mania for guns in the US, not least, the arms manufacturers, who make fortunes out of these massacres as every time there is another outrage, gun sales shoot upwards.

Most of the popular myths about guns in America (they make you safer; they are part of American tradition; they are embedded in apple pie, mom & pop family values) are just that - myths. They are deliberately promoted and promulgated by the gun lobbies. For example, the myth that Americans have always been armed - before 1960, very few US households outside remote farming areas had guns in the house. Or the myth that guns protect you - all evidence shows that guns in the hands of the poorly trained make one more, not less vulnerable.

These propaganda onslaughts were carefully designed by admen working for the gun lobbies in the 60s and 70s.
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DiddyDec
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#26
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
We shouldn't attribute it all to some kind of bizarre American irrationality though. There are actually powerful lobbies behind the mania for guns in the US, not least, the arms manufacturers, who make fortunes out of these massacres as every time there is another outrage, gun sales shoot upwards.

Most of the popular myths about guns in America (they make you safer; they are part of American tradition; they are embedded in apple pie, mom & pop family values) are just that - myths. They are deliberately promoted and promulgated by the gun lobbies. For example, the myth that Americans have always been armed - before 1960, very few US households outside remote farming areas had guns in the house. Or the myth that guns protect you - all evidence shows that guns in the hands of the poorly trained make one more, not less vulnerable.

These propaganda onslaughts were carefully designed by admen working for the gun lobbies in the 60s and 70s.
It is basically a religion for many of them, reinforced through indoctrination which take the form of propaganda. The gun lobby is nothing short of cult like.
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QE2
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#27
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
It isn't the early 1900's anymore where automatic meant rechambering automatically, that is an outdated term.
If the only practical difference between an "automatic" and "not automatic" version of the same rifle is a few mm of movement of one finger between each shot, the differentiation is meaningless - especially if every round in a 30 round magazine causes a fatality (something that is actually more likely with a semi than fully auto).
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QE2
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#28
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Most of the popular myths about guns in America...they are embedded in apple pie
Yet another cynical corporate strategy to increase revenues for the dental-industrial complex.
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DiddyDec
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#29
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#29
(Original post by QE2)
If the only practical difference between an "automatic" and "not automatic" version of the same rifle is a few mm of movement of one finger between each shot, the differentiation is meaningless - especially if every round in a 30 round magazine causes a fatality (something that is actually more likely with a semi than fully auto).
The difference is far from meaningless when it comes to legality and ownership of automatic weapons.

The original statement was paternaly wrong.
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Fullofsurprises
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#30
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
It is basically a religion for many of them, reinforced through indoctrination which take the form of propaganda. The gun lobby is nothing short of cult like.
Based on fear. Particularly of the black man. The NRA is a profoundly racist institution.
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DiddyDec
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#31
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Based on fear. Particularly of the black man. The NRA is a profoundly racist institution.
Pretty much all major religions are based on fear, fear of punishment by God.
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IanDangerously
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#32
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(Original post by QE2)
I've never understood the "Making it illegal won't help because criminals will still have them" argument. Most mass shootings and homicides use legally held guns and few are committed by criminals on civilians. The proponents seem to be saying that if 0 deaths is not possible it is better to have 1000 deaths than 500.
Also, why don't they apply the same argument to drugs?

Once it becomes as much a part of society as it has, it’s very difficult to make it illegal. There’s so much money involved and there’s too many people who don’t want their guns taken away. If they were to ban guns today it’d be in place until January 2025 and then the next regime would reverse it anyway.

Doesn’t the argument kind of apply to drugs anyway? They are illegal but so common there’s no real point in them being illegal.
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Fullofsurprises
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Every time these massacres take place, I find myself wondering how the parents and siblings and aunts and uncles and grandparents of the children murdered in Sandy Hook feel about the argument that it's all to do with liberty and the American Way.
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the bear
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#34
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tbh these shootings are just accepted as The American Way... it is difficult to imagine a suitably shocking event to make the Government do something.
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QE2
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#35
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(Original post by IanDangerously)
Once it becomes as much a part of society as it has, it’s very difficult to make it illegal. There’s so much money involved and there’s too many people who don’t want their guns taken away. If they were to ban guns today it’d be in place until January 2025 and then the next regime would reverse it anyway.
It would be interesting to see how candidates who unequivocally supported stricter gun controls fared at the polls, given the huge majority of the electorate who are in favour of them.

Doesn’t the argument kind of apply to drugs anyway? They are illegal but so common there’s no real point in them being illegal.
And yet, they are illegal and there is little political will for their legalisation (beyond a bit of weed), so the same argument cannot apply to guns.
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QE2
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#36
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(Original post by the bear)
it is difficult to imagine a suitably shocking event to make the Government do something.
Maybe a mass shooting of the rich and famous?
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the bear
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#37
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maybe if people invaded an important Government building... obviously that couldn't happen :emo:
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nulli tertius
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#38
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(Original post by the bear)
tbh these shootings are just accepted as The American Way... it is difficult to imagine a suitably shocking event to make the Government do something.
Reagan assassinated in 1981 perhaps coming on the heels of the murder of Lennon?
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Fullofsurprises
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#39
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(Original post by the bear)
maybe if people invaded an important Government building... obviously that couldn't happen :emo:
But.. but... but... those nice folks were all totally harmless! Didn't ya see the pics?
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Fullofsurprises
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#40
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Reagan assassinated in 1981 perhaps coming on the heels of the murder of Lennon?
Let's not forget that they lost a President in the 60s to bullets allegedly fired from a legally purchased rifle, bought by mail order and they didn't do much to change gun control after that. I do think though that if a gunman toting an automatic rifle managed to get into the House or Senate and mow down a bunch of the people's reps, that might tip them into some kind of 'action'.
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