TheMcSame
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#81
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#81
(Original post by 04MR17)
Where exactly have I mentioned any conspiracy?

At what point have I said I don't agree with the findings?

I asked you a simple question about research methodology which you haven't answered. Instead, you have chosen to deflect and presume I hold opinions that I have not stated.
One does not always need to state their opinions to make them known. As far as I'm concerned, you were inferring that the data is wrong, ergo you're saying institutional racism is a problem in the country and thus you're akin to flat earthers and anti-vaxxers by denying evidence.
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Talon
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#82
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It is depressing seeing people tweet news articles of instances where people have done something racist and using that to say that the UK is a racist country and is "institutionally racist". A limited number of racists does not make the country racist, any more than the police spend their time killing women who are walking home at night. If the bar for a country to be "not racist" is for there to be absolutely no racism at all, they will be waiting a long time for that to happen. I am unaware of any country on the planet that would meet that criteria. That isn't to say that we can't always strive to be better, but constantly putting the country down isn't the way forward.
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N. Auditoré
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#83
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#83
(Original post by TheMcSame)
I'm sorry, I thought actual experts knew more about their subjects than armchair layabouts. But please, continue to spout your flavour of conspiracy as if it's not the same as being an anti-vaxxer or a flat earther.

If this were about any other subject, you'd call those who don't believe it idiots and conspiracy theorists. But all of a sudden, because you don't agree with the findings, it's not right.
Your whole logic is based on a fallacy, which us funny
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N. Auditoré
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#84
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(Original post by Talon)
It is depressing seeing people tweet news articles of instances where people have done something racist and using that to say that the UK is a racist country and is "institutionally racist". A limited number of racists does not make the country racist, any more than the police spend their time killing women who are walking home at night. If the bar for a country to be "not racist" is for there to be absolutely no racism at all, they will be waiting a long time for that to happen. I am unaware of any country on the planet that would meet that criteria. That isn't to say that we can't always strive to be better, but constantly putting the country down isn't the way forward.
Implementing Jim Crow laws (not allowing black ppl to grow/show their hair) in schools to prevent black kids (and only them) from going to school and getting an equal education is very much an example of institutional racism. I will happily put down a country that still uses Jim Crow tactics in 2021 on KIDS 🥴
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Napp
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#85
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#85
(Original post by DSilva)
The political context of a report is highly relevant.

If the Tories commissioned a report on Brexit, and handpicked a bunch of panellists who were very pro Brexit, and the report reached a conclusion that Breixt was fantastic, would you simply accept it without challenge?
I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with what i said
Suffice it to say the commissioner is irrelevent here (unles you seriously think every single government report is now ********) the panelists were varied and respected and, most importantly, not simply a bunch of ignorant activists so your trying to impugn their integrity seems a bit suspect to say the leasr..
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nulli tertius
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#86
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#86
Let us say you assemble a panel:-

Bobby Charlton
Alex Ferguson
David Beckham
Andy Cole
Eric Cantona
Tracey Neville

It is very varied and respected. There are different races, nationalities, genders, ages. Five have been footballers, but one made his name as a manager not a players. One made her name playing and managing in a completely different sport, netball. You couldn’t ask for a better balanced panel to decide overall which is the finest football club.

And that is what the Government did with the Race and Diversity Commission.

Would you like to make a bet that they will choose Arsenal?
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epicnm
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Talon)
It is depressing seeing people tweet news articles of instances where people have done something racist and using that to say that the UK is a racist country and is "institutionally racist". A limited number of racists does not make the country racist, any more than the police spend their time killing women who are walking home at night. If the bar for a country to be "not racist" is for there to be absolutely no racism at all, they will be waiting a long time for that to happen. I am unaware of any country on the planet that would meet that criteria. That isn't to say that we can't always strive to be better, but constantly putting the country down isn't the way forward.
I don’t think you’ve grasped the concept of institutional racism. Racism from police may be a single officer using disproportionately excessive force against a black child. Institutional racism is that police are four times more likely to use force against black people

Acknowledging racism isn’t “putting the country down”. It’s taking the very first step to do something about it. You cannot find a cure for cancer by pretending it doesn’t exist.
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DSilva
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#88
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(Original post by Napp)
I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with what i said
Suffice it to say the commissioner is irrelevent here (unles you seriously think every single government report is now ********) the panelists were varied and respected and, most importantly, not simply a bunch of ignorant activists so your trying to impugn their integrity seems a bit suspect to say the leasr..
Don't you think we should scrutinise and challenge what we hear, especially if we are being told it by the government? You seem generally and correctly reluctant to just accept what the government says on a wide range of issues. This should be no different.

Like I said, if the government commissioned a report on Brexit, and handpicked a bunch of panellists who (respected as they may be) were all pro Brexit to begin with, you wouldn't just accept the report without question would you?

The polticial context is important. This report was from a conservative government.
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DSilva
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#89
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#89
(Original post by nulli tertius)
Let us say you assemble a panel:-

Bobby Charlton
Alex Ferguson
David Beckham
Andy Cole
Eric Cantona
Tracey Neville

It is very varied and respected. There are different races, nationalities, genders, ages. Five have been footballers, but one made his name as a manager not a players. One made her name playing and managing in a completely different sport, netball. You couldn’t ask for a better balanced panel to decide overall which is the finest football club.

And that is what the Government did with the Race and Diversity Commission.

Would you like to make a bet that they will choose Arsenal?
It would be more akin to asking those panellists whether football was the best sport.

If a Labour government commissioned a report on the minimum wage and handpicked a bunch of panellists from left wing think tanks to produce the report, would you just accept its findings as true because it came from the government?

Tony Sewel, who chaired the Panel has long denied institutional racism exists. His mind was made up before the report was undertaken.
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fallen_acorns
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#90
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#90
(Original post by epicnm)
I don’t think you’ve grasped the concept of institutional racism. Racism from police may be a single officer using disproportionately excessive force against a black child. Institutional racism is that police are four times more likely to use force against black people

Acknowledging racism isn’t “putting the country down”. It’s taking the very first step to do something about it. You cannot find a cure for cancer by pretending it doesn’t exist.
There is a problem with your article and the conclusion, and its very key.

The Met are 4x more likely to use force on a black person than a white person..
But
The Met are 4x more likely to have an interaction with a black person than a white person (based on stop+search stats)

Meaning that per encounter, the police are no more likely to be violent to a black person than a white person... but they have far more encounters (per population) with black people than white people.

This gives us a clearer picture. Its not that when you see a police officer they are more likely to be violent to you because your black, its that black people in london come into contact with the law far more than white people, I would argue partially due to racism and partially due to cultural differences.

---

It's a problem to then lay that at the hands of institutional racism, because doesn't that also mean the police are racist against white people?

They are racist against black people because they encounter them more than white people...
But they encounter white people more than South Asian, Indian, Jewish people etc.

White people are really the second worse ethnic group when it comes to police statistics. If your Asian your less likely to be stopped, and less likely to experience violence/restraint, also likely to serve smaller sentences etc. etc. So are the police institutionally racist in favour of Asian people and against white people?

Or is it ok to say that culture plays a part when an ethnic group does well, e.g. Asian people have strong families, strong morals, better education, earn more money and commit less crimes than white people so obviously they have less problems with the police. But not to say the same about groups that perform worse than white people?

(In before someone links the model minority myth as if its a clever rebuttal)
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fallen_acorns
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#91
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#91
Following on.. That's one of the things that white people need to take away from a report like this. It used to be that other communities used to learn from us about how to succeed. Now its the opposite.

White people are no longer the most successfully and best organized/functioning group in our country, and the advantages they still hold are mainly because of legacy wealth passed down by their family and the majority-bias that they still benefit from.

In terms of actual self-earned achievements though? White people are falling behind, and in many areas the questions for those in white families/communities should be to ask: "How are the other groups being so successfully and what can we do to emulate their success?"

Reports like this should be humbling for white people. Despite all of the inbuilt advantages, we aren't doing as well as other groups who have had to overcome so much adversity.

That should be a big moment of societal reflection to say 'where are we going wrong?'

You can't blame immigrants, they aren't the problem - they are the answer. Many migrant groups are showing us how to be more successful not taking anything away from us.
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DSilva
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#92
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#92
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Following on.. That's one of the things that white people need to take away from a report like this. It used to be that other communities used to learn from us about how to succeed. Now its the opposite.

White people are no longer the most successfully and best organized/functioning group in our country, and the advantages they still hold are mainly because of legacy wealth passed down by their family and the majority-bias that they still benefit from.

In terms of actual self-earned achievements though? White people are falling behind, and in many areas the questions for those in white families/communities should be to ask: "How are the other groups being so successfully and what can we do to emulate their success?"

Reports like this should be humbling for white people. Despite all of the inbuilt advantages, we aren't doing as well as other groups who have had to overcome so much adversity.

That should be a big moment of societal reflection to say 'where are we going wrong?'

You can't blame immigrants, they aren't the problem - they are the answer. Many migrant groups are showing us how to be more successful not taking anything away from us.
Interesting points.

It's also notable how the conservatives only ever care about the white working class when the topic of racism is brought up.

What have the Conservatives done for the white working class in the past 11 years?
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fallen_acorns
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#93
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#93
(Original post by DSilva)
Interesting points.

It's also notable how the conservatives only ever care about the white working class when the topic of racism is brought up.

What have the Conservatives done for the white working class in the past 11 years?
Same reason they only care about mental health when it's in an argument against lockdowns. The powerful only care about those under them when they are useful to them getting what they want.
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04MR17
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#94
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#94
(Original post by TheMcSame)
One does not always need to state their opinions to make them known. As far as I'm concerned, you were inferring that the data is wrong, ergo you're saying institutional racism is a problem in the country and thus you're akin to flat earthers and anti-vaxxers by denying evidence.
Except I wasn't. I was actually asking a straight forward question about research methodology. I don't infer anything in my questioning. A spade is a spade.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by DSilva)
It would be more akin to asking those panellists whether football was the best sport.

If a Labour government commissioned a report on the minimum wage and handpicked a bunch of panellists from left wing think tanks to produce the report, would you just accept its findings as true because it came from the government?

Tony Sewel, who chaired the Panel has long denied institutional racism exists. His mind was made up before the report was undertaken.
No.

My analogy is the better one.

We are both making the same point but the packing of the Committee has greater subtlety than yours implies. Indeed the subtlety is possibly such that it was lost on you. The point of my list of football panelists is that they were all, in one way or another, deeply emotionally invested in Manchester United.
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the beer
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Ooh another gov report calling for the decriminalisation of drugs, about time they pulled their finger out and got on with it.
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V℮rsions
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#97
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I love how when talking about racism, it always leads back to black and white -- as if brown people just don't exist.
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fallen_acorns
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#98
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(Original post by V℮rsions)
I love how when talking about racism, it always leads back to black and white -- as if brown people just don't exist.
That's part of the issue with importing American ideas about racism. They don't have the same racial make-up that we do, and one thing they don't have is the large south Asian population.
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TheMcSame
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#99
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(Original post by N. Auditoré)
Your whole logic is based on a fallacy, which us funny
And your logic is based on denying evidence.
(Original post by 04MR17)
Except I wasn't. I was actually asking a straight forward question about research methodology. I don't infer anything in my questioning. A spade is a spade.
And a conspiracy nut is a conspiracy nut. You wouldn't take an anti-vaxxer seriously. Same applies here. No use arguing with someone that won't accept evidence because all that matter to them is their opinion.

Don't worry, I'm sure you and your friends can go out and protest against another non-issue fad. Perhaps it'll be something about plants and their feelings next.

In the meantime, keep those tinfoil hats warm boys. You never know when the 5G mind control will kick in 🤣
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04MR17
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#100
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(Original post by TheMcSame)
And your logic is based on denying evidence.

And a conspiracy nut is a conspiracy nut. You wouldn't take an anti-vaxxer seriously. Same applies here. No use arguing with someone that won't accept evidence because all that matter to them is their opinion.

Don't worry, I'm sure you and your friends can go out and protest against another non-issue fad. Perhaps it'll be something about plants and their feelings next.

In the meantime, keep those tinfoil hats warm boys. You never know when the 5G mind control will kick in 🤣
Please don't be rude by continuing to assume my opinions before I have given them. Please answer the question I originally asked:
Do you really believe scientific data is as objective as the findings of a panel of people investigating a metaphysical and socio-cultural phenomenon?
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