daveymcloughlin
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1.) Play it safe and firm Leeds at ABB
2.) Risk it and firm Manchester (AAA) and insure Liverpool - This is presuming that Liverpool would let me in with lower than AAA - they even said on their open day that AAA was just a 'starting offer'.

Money and distance is the reason as to why I am put off by firming Leeds, for those wondering why I don't just firm Leeds as they have a similar reputation for Law with Manchester.

My main question here is, is Leeds that much better than Liverpool for law, that I should not take the risk of firming Manchester at AAA incase I missed the offer and had to go to Liverpool.

I know Liverpool is a RG uni, but they probably have one of the worst reputations for law in the RG, at least from what I have seen from peoples opinions and also league tables.
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daveymcloughlin
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EU Yakov Johnny ~
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harrysbar
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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
1.) Play it safe and firm Leeds at ABB
2.) Risk it and firm Manchester (AAA) and insure Liverpool - This is presuming that Liverpool would let me in with lower than AAA - they even said on their open day that AAA was just a 'starting offer'.

Money and distance is the reason as to why I am put off by firming Leeds, for those wondering why I don't just firm Leeds as they have a similar reputation for Law with Manchester.

My main question here is, is Leeds that much better than Liverpool for law, that I should not take the risk of firming Manchester at AAA incase I missed the offer and had to go to Liverpool.

I know Liverpool is a RG uni, but they probably have one of the worst reputations for law in the RG, at least from what I have seen from peoples opinions and also league tables.
I'm surprised you're even asking this question - the difference between the unis you are considering is neglible and highly unlikely to affect career prospects.

You should Firm the uni you most want to go to - simple. Ideally (though not necessarily) your Insurance choice should have lower requirements. In reality, Liverpool ticks that box in being a less competitive uni than Manchester and far more likely to be flexible with grades.

If you are predicted AAA and want to go to Manchester, I would Firm them and Insure Liverpool.
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Johnny ~
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Can't you firm Manchester and insure Leeds? Or is Leeds only ABB if firmed?

Liverpool is an interesting one. There are lots of people who start the course with less than AAA - probably the majority - but we obviously don't know whether they were offered AAA to begin with, or whether they were predicted AAA+ and fell short on results day, or whether they had extenuating circumstances. For all we know the reasons why they were let in with <AAA may not apply to you.

There isn't much data on Liverpool's admissions on https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/searc...sity%20law/all. I found this: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...coming-1092554 but it's 4+ years out of date.
(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
1.) Play it safe and firm Leeds at ABB
2.) Risk it and firm Manchester (AAA) and insure Liverpool - This is presuming that Liverpool would let me in with lower than AAA - they even said on their open day that AAA was just a 'starting offer'.

Money and distance is the reason as to why I am put off by firming Leeds, for those wondering why I don't just firm Leeds as they have a similar reputation for Law with Manchester.

My main question here is, is Leeds that much better than Liverpool for law, that I should not take the risk of firming Manchester at AAA incase I missed the offer and had to go to Liverpool.

I know Liverpool is a RG uni, but they probably have one of the worst reputations for law in the RG, at least from what I have seen from peoples opinions and also league tables.
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daveymcloughlin
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(Original post by harrysbar)
I'm surprised you're even asking this question - the difference between the unis you are considering is neglible and highly unlikely to affect career prospects.

You should Firm the uni you most want to go to - simple. Ideally (though not necessarily) your Insurance choice should have lower requirements. In reality, Liverpool ticks that box in being a less competitive uni than Manchester and far more likely to be flexible with grades.

If you are predicted AAA and want to go to Manchester, I would Firm them and Insure Liverpool.
Looking at league tables and other stuff online such as the chambers data, suggest to me that the difference isn't that negligible.

I know I preach on here about not listening to the opinions of TSR users, but no one on here ever mentions Liverpool as being a good university, where as Leeds and Manchester are lol.

The thing that bothers me about Liverpool is that they have a massive intake of law undergraduates, I think it's nearly 600, yet on the Chambers data they are way below Leeds and Manchester.
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daveymcloughlin
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(Original post by Johnny ~)
Can't you firm Manchester and insure Leeds? Or is Leeds only ABB if firmed?

Liverpool is an interesting one. There are lots of people who start the course with less than AAA - probably the majority - but we obviously don't know whether they were offered AAA to begin with, or whether they were predicted AAA+ and fell short on results day, or whether they had extenuating circumstances. For all we know the reasons why they were let in with <AAA may not apply to you.

There isn't much data on Liverpool's admissions on https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/searc...sity%20law/all. I found this: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...coming-1092554 but it's 4+ years out of date.
Yeah I must firm Leeds to get the reduced offer.

Thanks, I am confident in insuring Liverpool and them still letting me in with less than AAA.

It's just how 'good' the university is for law that is bothering me.
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Nightwish1234
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In my opinion, between these three universities the difference in terms of employability is not that significant. You mention chambers, suggesting you are considering pursuing a career as a barrister - a large number of chambers blind mark, meaning the name is not seen. What sets apart the Oxbridge (as an example) students is the additional experiences they have on their applications and general quality of their writing and thinking. I would not recommend looking at the mere name of the university on tenants applications when researching which university is more employable.

Pupillage applications (the final and most competitive step in the path becoming a barrister) are often marked on a point based system, which focuses on criteria like grades, commitment to the bar and if applicable practice area, hobbies and interests etc - there is no bonus point for going to a top 10 uni over a top 50. It comes down to which university best sets you up to fill out these other boxes.

Things you should be taking into account are the opportunities they offer - such as the structure of the course and/or additional modules they offer (take medical, bioethics, or environmental law which only some universities offer). Some universities offer many exams throughout, each worth less credits, others a single exam at the end, and some are much more essay based - I would choose that which suits you best. Further to this, what their bar and mooting society is like (if they even have one, which I would hope they do), as this experience is key for pupillage applications.

Secondary to this, you should choose that which you feel you will be happiest at. Law school can be very trying at times and if you are not content where you are (big city vs small city, strong night life or daytime events etc.) your grades are likely to suffer.

I'm afraid I don't have experience at three universities aside from hearing the opinions of friends, but they seem largely equal in terms of opportunities. I would recommend reading up on the aforementioned factors and basing your decision on these.
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daveymcloughlin
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(Original post by Nightwish1234)
In my opinion, between these three universities the difference in terms of employability is not that significant. You mention chambers, suggesting you are considering pursuing a career as a barrister - a large number of chambers blind mark, meaning the name is not seen. What sets apart the Oxbridge (as an example) students is the additional experiences they have on their applications and general quality of their writing and thinking. I would not recommend looking at the mere name of the university on tenants applications when researching which university is more employable.

Pupillage applications (the final and most competitive step in the path becoming a barrister) are often marked on a point based system, which focuses on criteria like grades, commitment to the bar and if applicable practice area, hobbies and interests etc - there is no bonus point for going to a top 10 uni over a top 50. It comes down to which university best sets you up to fill out these other boxes.

Things you should be taking into account are the opportunities they offer - such as the structure of the course and/or additional modules they offer (take medical, bioethics, or environmental law which only some universities offer). Some universities offer many exams throughout, each worth less credits, others a single exam at the end, and some are much more essay based - I would choose that which suits you best. Further to this, what their bar and mooting society is like (if they even have one, which I would hope they do), as this experience is key for pupillage applications.

Secondary to this, you should choose that which you feel you will be happiest at. Law school can be very trying at times and if you are not content where you are (big city vs small city, strong night life or daytime events etc.) your grades are likely to suffer.

I'm afraid I don't have experience at three universities aside from hearing the opinions of friends, but they seem largely equal in terms of opportunities. I would recommend reading up on the aforementioned factors and basing your decision on these.
I am put off by Leeds compulsory dissertation tbh - 14,000 words is a lot lol.

I was actually thinking of doing environmental law which Leeds offer. I don't know why I just thought it would be interesting tbh. Is this a good module to take then?
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Nightwish1234
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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
I am put off by Leeds compulsory dissertation tbh - 14,000 words is a lot lol.

I was actually thinking of doing environmental law which Leeds offer. I don't know why I just thought it would be interesting tbh. Is this a good module to take then?
Personal preference! It isn't my cup of tea, I just mentioned it as an example of a module that isn't offered by all. I'm personally interested in medical law, which I had to do intercollegiate as my home university didn't offer it, which was a lot of administrative hassle and time wasted commuting. It may be the case your interests change over the years, but if you have a rough idea now, it is worth looking at what each university does that is unique

Re: Dissertations. In the third year of my undergrad I made the bold choice of writing two 10,000 word ones (in the place of exams), but I actually quite enjoyed these! They are useful if you are considering academia but very time consuming and trying if you don't enjoy long independent projects. Certainly not for everyone, and won't necessarily set you apart on pupillage applications (your final grade is more important)
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Johnny ~
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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
Yeah I must firm Leeds to get the reduced offer.

Thanks, I am confident in insuring Liverpool and them still letting me in with less than AAA.

It's just how 'good' the university is for law that is bothering me.
I don't think that there's a major difference between the three. Liverpool gets a bad rep from being one of the least selective RGs and having a huge LLB intake with correspondingly big seminars.

I actually liked both of my dissertations and found that they flexed very different muscles in my brain. Dissertations, if you have a decent topic to work on, are a good way of almost guaranteeing that you will get a First in one of your modules, provided that you are organised and put in the hours of course.

Maybe take a look at point 4, here? https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6247090
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daveymcloughlin
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(Original post by Nightwish1234)
Personal preference! It isn't my cup of tea, I just mentioned it as an example of a module that isn't offered by all. I'm personally interested in medical law, which I had to do intercollegiate as my home university didn't offer it, which was a lot of administrative hassle and time wasted commuting. It may be the case your interests change over the years, but if you have a rough idea now, it is worth looking at what each university does that is unique

Re: Dissertations. In the third year of my undergrad I made the bold choice of writing two 10,000 word ones (in the place of exams), but I actually quite enjoyed these! They are useful if you are considering academia but very time consuming and trying if you don't enjoy long independent projects. Certainly not for everyone, and won't necessarily set you apart on pupillage applications (your final grade is more important)
What would you say is better or easier, coursework or an exam. For Manchester they are exam heavy whereas Leeds and Liverpool are coursework heavy.
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harrysbar
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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
What would you say is better or easier, coursework or an exam. For Manchester they are exam heavy whereas Leeds and Liverpool are coursework heavy.
Surely that depends on what you personally find easier between exams or coursework? Neither is easy as they both bring stress whether it's revising for exams or rushing to complete all your coursework deadlines on time and to a high standard.
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daveymcloughlin
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(Original post by harrysbar)
Surely that depends on what you personally find easier between exams or coursework? Neither is easy as they both bring stress whether it's revising for exams or rushing to complete all your coursework deadlines on time and to a high standard.
yeah that's what I thought coursework will be expected to be of a higher standard.

I'm doing coursework now for one subject which is horrific tbh as I don't know where find the info, but I imagine that to be more like a dissertation than uni coursework.

All the tests we've had for A level have been one 20 marker which we knew the topic of and I never revised for GCSE so I don't really know lol.
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Nightwish1234
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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
What would you say is better or easier, coursework or an exam. For Manchester they are exam heavy whereas Leeds and Liverpool are coursework heavy.
Absolutely, this is a matter of personal preference again - I like coursework as I perform better and find the process less stressful. To me exams require a lot more long term preparation and you to be at the top of your game that one day. I would say a mix between the two is ideal - too much of anything is never fun.
It honestly seems to me that all three universities are equally strong options You'll be great wherever you chose to go
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daveymcloughlin
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I get that league table rankings are hash and that you don’t rate them, but what about the chambers report?

I see that they point out that the larger the intake the more likely they are to appear, but as the 3 unis I mentioned have all large intakes, that wouldn’t matter as I’m only really comparing them 3, if you get what I’m saying.

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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
I get that league table rankings are hash and that you don’t rate them, but what about the chambers report?

I see that they point out that the larger the intake the more likely they are to appear, but as the 3 unis I mentioned have all large intakes, that wouldn’t matter as I’m only really comparing them 3, if you get what I’m saying.

Nightwish1234
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Students with better A level grades are more likely to get training contracts as plenty of firms still have high A level requirements along with the 2.1 and some unis are more likely to have graduates with those grades. As an example, Manchester uni will have more graduates with AAA or AAB than Liverpool uni, because Liverpool are flexible on grades and have traditionally accepted lower grades in Clearing. That does not mean that someone with AAA who chooses to go to Liverpool will struggle to get a training contract any more than someone with AAA who attends Manchester uni.

Along with the size of the intake, this is another factor that is reflected in the Chambers report.
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Johnny ~
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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
I get that league table rankings are hash and that you don’t rate them, but what about the chambers report?

I see that they point out that the larger the intake the more likely they are to appear, but as the 3 unis I mentioned have all large intakes, that wouldn’t matter as I’m only really comparing them 3, if you get what I’m saying.

Nightwish1234
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They don't have an equally sized intake. Liverpool is larger than the others. Manchester and Leeds may well be similar but I'd have to check.

The Chambers Student report is an awful way to pick between universities. Read Points 1a-1c here, they discuss Chambers Student in excruciating detail: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=6247090. Chambers Student also wouldn't do a good job of measuring anything in your situation because none of these unis don't feed a majority of their graduates to City firms in London. There's a 'national law firms' list, but the list covers the entire country, including areas where Manchester/Leeds/Liverpool students are less likely to be interested in working in, such as the South West and East Anglia.

I think that firming Manchester or Leeds and insuring Liverpool is the way to go, given the complexity of your situation.
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EU Yakov
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(Original post by daveymcloughlin)
I get that league table rankings are hash and that you don’t rate them, but what about the chambers report?

I see that they point out that the larger the intake the more likely they are to appear, but as the 3 unis I mentioned have all large intakes, that wouldn’t matter as I’m only really comparing them 3, if you get what I’m saying.

Nightwish1234
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idk if you have special ties to one of the three cities you mentioned but if so, you should go to the uni in that city. manchester uni gets a lot of attention from the manchester offices of law firms, liverpool uni from liverpool based law firms, you get the idea
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Nightwish1234
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My perspective on league tables is that they can be informative, but that individuals tend to simply look at them at face value without questioning the information they really present. For example, that if they attend a top 10 university over a top 50 they are the more appealing candidate, or, that because a chambers is comprised of 90% oxbridge graduates that if they too go to oxbridge they will be chosen and if they did not they shouldn't even apply. Both these assumptions are entirely untrue - the reputation of a university on its own will never (in an ethical and fair recruitment process) be enough to get you even through a paper sift stage for a job.

Further to this, there is significant variation year in year out on league tables or indeed between league tables. I should mention here that I have not researched the Chamber's guide in any detail, as when choosing where to apply for pupillage, my decisions were guided by their practice area, recent cases, and meeting members of chambers.

So, what is the correlation then, if some firms or chambers appear entirely comprised of students from a certain university? As Harrysbar pointed out, universities have different entry requirements and this coupled with other smaller factors (from the size of the uni, to it's nightlife, location etc.) influence the type of student they bring in. Oxbridge will likely have straight A* students whereas a lower ranked university might bring in ABB (etc.). It is highly likely that if the Oxbridge student went to your lower ranked university they would perform similarly well and obtain that elusive job, even without the oxbridge name. If you are an excellent canditate, the reputation of the university that you attend will not make you more or less employable.

So, I would use league tables as a piece of the puzzle - just because you attend a university with a good name or match the profile of a barrister (on paper) does not guarantee you anything. You need to be looking at why the university is ranking highly and what they can offer you. It is what you make of the university that matters, from grades, to mooting/debating experiences, to specialist modules etc.
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one_two_three
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All three universities are largely the same in what they will offer you in terms of career prospects. What sets you apart is A level grades, experience and extra-curriculars and that is all down to the individual and not the uni you attend because hand holding finishes as soon as you leave college. You will notice when you begin university that some people are far more motivated to get involved in different activities, really put the effort into their studies and seek out ways to build their CV and a large amount will be happy to do the bare minimum work.

One question to ask yourself is how self-motivated are you? I would consider myself self-motivated but I would also say that having a small seminar group motivated me to do the work because there was no hiding and I was not willing to have the embarrassment of admitting I had not done the work and potentially being asked to leave (as some tutors would do). Larger groups enable you to hide which is not beneficial if you think you might become lazy. The difference between A levels and degree is that at A levels you get homework most weeks and then you have to submit the homework for marking so you get that constant feedback and monitoring. At university you get homework every week but if you don't do the homework you are going to panic throughout the seminar and hope not to be called, you will be relieved at the end because there is no submission, and you are going to despair at assessment time if you haven't been doing the work as you go along. So a big factor to consider there is: what environment are you going to thrive in?

The cities aren't too far apart, just visit each one over the course of a few days and have a walk around. You can walk around the campus of each of the universities and the city centre because those are the two places you will spend most of your time. See which one you like the feel of most. Studying for the next 3 years will be a large part of your life but it isn't going to be your whole life so you have to like where you live. And if you are happy then you are likely to be more motivated and achieve more.

Where do you want to live after uni? If it is one of these three cities then firm that university. When you get there you will realise that all of your internal competitions are sponsored by the local firms and chambers, they even host social functions. These are opportunities to network that may help you when you are looking to secure work experience which in turn helps with training contract and pupillage applications. The value of networking should never be underestimated in law so begin as soon as you can.
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