Vegans do you feel guilty about enjoying yourself?

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maths42
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I'm a vegan and I just can't get over how terrible it is that most "livestock" are raised in such a horrible way and sometimes get tortured so much, and are really not slaughtered humanely in general (not that humane slaughter really makes sense as a concept).

As there is so much suffering, I feel as though it's not right for me to ever enjoy myself as the suffering that all the animals go through surely massively outweighs any pleasure we might get, for example from going on holiday. I also don't feel comfortable going on holiday with people who will trough through lots of meat every day without giving a second thought to what the animals have gone through and just enjoying themselves. I also find it really upsetting that animals are treated even worse in so many countries and it seems crazy that most people who go on foreign holidays eat meat in other countries without giving a second thought to how the animals might have been raised and slaughtered there.

For any non-vegans reading this who feel that they have good reasons not to go vegan, I highly recommend that you watch this really interesting TED talk which I promise will be one of the most valuable talks that you will ever watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byTxzzztRBU
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Shy oreo
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Hey, I’m not a vegan and I love my meat. I really do respect your opinion.
I know that some of the animals go through cruel conditions which is why I buy rspca assured meat. It would also be very hard to get my protein as I hate soya beans and lentils. I just love my meat, I’d be hard for me to go without it.
I do agree that some animals are being treated poorly just to fill up our stomach, but there’s not much we can do.
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Foxehh
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Watched the video through. Some interesting points, but not enough to convince me to give up eating meat.

You'll never be happy in life if you focus on what you cant control. Its not your fault that people do things that you morally disagree with, you dont deserve to suppress your happiness because of other's actions. By being vegan you're doing what you can to help the cause you're passionate for, you should be happy with yourself.
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maths42
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(Original post by Shy oreo)
Hey, I’m not a vegan and I love my meat. I really do respect your opinion.
I know that some of the animals go through cruel conditions which is why I buy rspca assured meat. It would also be very hard to get my protein as I hate soya beans and lentils. I just love my meat, I’d be hard for me to go without it.
I do agree that some animals are being treated poorly just to fill up our stomach, but there’s not much we can do.
I appreciate that. It is worth bearing in mind that animals reared for RSPCA assured meat haven't necessarily been treated as well as they should have been when they were raised though and they still have to face the slaughterhouse, which tragically included abuse from workers and inhumane methods such as gassing.

May I ask, do you ever go on foreign holidays? If so, do you ever eat meat abroad and do you do anything to ascertain how the animals may have been treated there?

I have to disagree that there's not much we can do - if we all stop buying meat, then very quickly production will stop and the abuse will end. Every time someone buys meat, they vote with their money for animals to continue being abused.
Last edited by maths42; 2 months ago
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maths42
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(Original post by Foxehh)
Watched the video through. Some interesting points, but not enough to convince me to give up eating meat.

You'll never be happy in life if you focus on what you cant control. Its not your fault that people do things that you morally disagree with, you dont deserve to suppress your happiness because of other's actions. By being vegan you're doing what you can to help the cause you're passionate for, you should be happy with yourself.
I appreciate you watching it. However, would you mind explaining what reasons you still have to justify eating meat?

The thing is, if humans were being abused on this scale worldwide and our family and friends were supporting this abuse with their money, surely we wouldn't feel that we can just get on with our lives and ignore it.
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Foxehh
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(Original post by maths42)
I appreciate you watching it. However, would you mind explaining what reasons you still have to justify eating meat?

The thing is, if humans were being abused on this scale worldwide and our family and friends were supporting this abuse with their money, surely we wouldn't feel that we can just get on with our lives and ignore it.
I dont feel like changing my entire lifestyle for something that is going to have a zero impact on the industry. And I really just dont care enough about the issue.

Well theres not much you as a single person can do, is there? Even in that case, you shouldnt torment yourself about what others are doing. Its okay to be devoted to the cause, but you still should allow yourself to enjoy things.
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maths42
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(Original post by Foxehh)
I dont feel like changing my entire lifestyle for something that is going to have a zero impact on the industry. And I really just dont care enough about the issue.

Well theres not much you as a single person can do, is there? Even in that case, you shouldnt torment yourself about what others are doing. Its okay to be devoted to the cause, but you still should allow yourself to enjoy things.
It could well have a big impact. It might be that not buying meat as an individual is the tipping point for a supermarket to reduce its order quantity of meat, and this could then be the tipping point for a farmer to raise fewer animals. You can also make a difference by trying to convince everyone you know to go vegan.

In terms of not caring about the issue, there are so many terrible things about the meat industry that you can discover if you do your research but one thing that I think should resonate with almost anyone is that pigs are of a similar level of intelligence to dogs. Now, most people really care about dogs and would be really upset by any cruelty to them. But most pigs are raised in terrible cramped conditions and 90% are "stunned" before slaughter using CO2 gas - this means that they suffocate for up to a minute or possibly more in terror and agony, fighting for their lives. There are videos of this online - I personally can't bring myself to watch one but every time I see pork products in a supermarket, I just imagine the pigs being tortured with CO2 and feel so upset and I feel so angry when I see someone put some in their trolley without giving the matter a second thought.

If nothing else, think of the last point in the video which is that an animal gave up its whole life so that you could enjoy your meal a bit more for just a few minutes. Then very quickly that meal gets forgotten about. Even if you hate the taste of all plant-based foods (which is hard to believe), does the displeasure of spending a few minutes eating something you dislike really outweigh all of the suffering that the animal(s) went through in order to produce your meal? And even if animal welfare wasn't an issue, the environmental benefit alone would be enough of a reason to go vegan, or the health benefits, or even the fact that pandemics are caused by the meat industry so every time someone eats meat, they are increasing the risk of lots of humans dying, as well as all of the other negative impacts of a pandemic, which we all very well understand.
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username5378046
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(Original post by maths42)
I'm a vegan and I just can't get over how terrible it is that most "livestock" are raised in such a horrible way and sometimes get tortured so much, and are really not slaughtered humanely in general (not that humane slaughter really makes sense as a concept).

As there is so much suffering, I feel as though it's not right for me to ever enjoy myself as the suffering that all the animals go through surely massively outweighs any pleasure we might get, for example from going on holiday. I also don't feel comfortable going on holiday with people who will trough through lots of meat every day without giving a second thought to what the animals have gone through and just enjoying themselves. I also find it really upsetting that animals are treated even worse in so many countries and it seems crazy that most people who go on foreign holidays eat meat in other countries without giving a second thought to how the animals might have been raised and slaughtered there.

For any non-vegans reading this who feel that they have good reasons not to go vegan, I highly recommend that you watch this really interesting TED talk which I promise will be one of the most valuable talks that you will ever watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byTxzzztRBU
What are your opinions on hunting meat rather than rearing livestock? Something like our ancient ancestors would have done?
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Smeraldettoi
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Let people live their lives for heaven sake; some vegans sound as bad as religious fundamentalists
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maths42
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(Original post by Skymoose)
What are your opinions on hunting meat rather than rearing livestock? Something like our ancient ancestors would have done?
It's barbaric and completely unnecessary as we can thrive on a plant-based diet. The fact that our ancient ancestors did it doesn't justify if - they would have also murdered and raped each other without consequence! And even though meat is legal, that doesn't make it ok. Some countries allow dog fighting but few people would think that it is acceptable.
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Cylar
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People are either vegan or omnivore, get over it.
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Kabzzzy
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(Original post by maths42)
It's barbaric and completely unnecessary as we can thrive on a plant-based diet. The fact that our ancient ancestors did it doesn't justify if - they would have also murdered and raped each other without consequence! And even though meat is legal, that doesn't make it ok. Some countries allow dog fighting but few people would think that it is acceptable.
I'm mostly vegan, I just nibble on cheese every now and then, and this is not the way to go about it. Part of the reason people never take vegans seriously is exactly this. Dog fighting is in no way similar to the slaughtering of animals for food. The latter is typically a fast process and conducted humanely in most countries. Dog fighting not only leaves Dogs dying and disabled, but I've seen documentaries that state owners would burn a Dog to death if it was incapacitated enough after a fight. Don't make such stupid comparisons as your credibility gets seriously diminished.

Understand that there are lots of issues in the world out of our control. Do something productive to satiate your own desires to help. Volunteer for charities, help raise awareness etc., but being militant and accusing others will harbour hatred and nothing more. I have never eaten meat, but I'll happily go out with friends who do because I respect their choices as they do mine. Documentaries like Seaspiracy have already done a great job at raising awareness, it's not your job to push people into changing if they don't want to. Harmony!!
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maths42
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(Original post by Cylar)
People are either vegan or omnivore, get over it.
But generally omnivores fall into one of the following categories:
1) They eat meat without giving the matter any thought. Most people eat meat so it's normal and it must be ok. Just like how slavery used to be normal and few people would have had a problem with it.
2) They care about animal welfare but they believe that all animals are raised and slaughtered humanely. Most of them wouldn't be able to bring themself to kill the animals that they eat themselves, and would be horrified if dogs were raised for meat though.
3) They think that animals don't feel pain or have thoughts. Even though we evolved from other animals.
4) They know full well that there is a lot of suffering involved in meat production but they eat it anyway as they couldn't care less. Such people are truly terrible and would probably be happily to murder innocent human beings if it was legal and socially acceptable. Think of what the Nazis did.

Unless you are ignorant or immoral, there is no reason why you shouldn't be a vegan.
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maths42
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(Original post by Kabzzzy)
I'm mostly vegan, I just nibble on cheese every now and then, and this is not the way to go about it. Part of the reason people never take vegans seriously is exactly this. Dog fighting is in no way similar to the slaughtering of animals for food. The latter is typically a fast process and conducted humanely in most countries. Dog fighting not only leaves Dogs dying and disabled, but I've seen documentaries that state owners would burn a Dog to death if it was incapacitated enough after a fight. Don't make such stupid comparisons as your credibility gets seriously diminished.

Understand that there are lots of issues in the world out of our control. Do something productive to satiate your own desires to help. Volunteer for charities, help raise awareness etc., but being militant and accusing others will harbour hatred and nothing more. I have never eaten meat, but I'll happily go out with friends who do because I respect their choices as they do mine. Documentaries like Seaspiracy have already done a great job at raising awareness, it's not your job to push people into changing if they don't want to. Harmony!!
Respect to you for not eating meat, although hopefully one day you will give up the cheese.

I wasn't saying that dog fighting is similar, but both do involve animals suffering unnecessarily. Regarding slaughter being humane (which isn't really possible), sadly we are misled and I think that few people realise that the stunning itself can be very inhumane. 90% of pigs in this country are stunned using CO2 gas which means that they suffocate for up to a minute of possibly more in agony, fighting for their lives. I cannot understand how this is acceptable. Cows are generally stunned using bolt stunning and an eighth of the time or possibly more, the stunning doesn't work and the animals have their throats cut whilst fully concious. Just imagine how terrible this must be for them! This is in the UK, officially one of the top countries in the world for welfare at slaughter. Now consider countries such as Lebanon where there are no standards and untrained staff who don't know what to do hang a cow by a leg and hack away at it with blunt tools for ages, giving the animals a very slow and incredibly painful death. I feel so upset writing about it.
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Foxehh
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(Original post by maths42)
It could well have a big impact. It might be that not buying meat as an individual is the tipping point for a supermarket to reduce its order quantity of meat, and this could then be the tipping point for a farmer to raise fewer animals. You can also make a difference by trying to convince everyone you know to go vegan.

In terms of not caring about the issue, there are so many terrible things about the meat industry that you can discover if you do your research but one thing that I think should resonate with almost anyone is that pigs are of a similar level of intelligence to dogs. Now, most people really care about dogs and would be really upset by any cruelty to them. But most pigs are raised in terrible cramped conditions and 90% are "stunned" before slaughter using CO2 gas - this means that they suffocate for up to a minute or possibly more in terror and agony, fighting for their lives. There are videos of this online - I personally can't bring myself to watch one but every time I see pork products in a supermarket, I just imagine the pigs being tortured with CO2 and feel so upset and I feel so angry when I see someone put some in their trolley without giving the matter a second thought.

If nothing else, think of the last point in the video which is that an animal gave up its whole life so that you could enjoy your meal a bit more for just a few minutes. Then very quickly that meal gets forgotten about. Even if you hate the taste of all plant-based foods (which is hard to believe), does the displeasure of spending a few minutes eating something you dislike really outweigh all of the suffering that the animal(s) went through in order to produce your meal? And even if animal welfare wasn't an issue, the environmental benefit alone would be enough of a reason to go vegan, or the health benefits, or even the fact that pandemics are caused by the meat industry so every time someone eats meat, they are increasing the risk of lots of humans dying, as well as all of the other negative impacts of a pandemic, which we all very well understand.
Im not here to debate, you asked for help with your issue of not being able to enjoy yourself. But this shows exactly your issue. You cannot control or convince anyone of everything, and you need to come to terms with that.
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Cıllıan
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Question to vegans.

Why do you feel the need to stop us from eating things like eggs or meat even if it's free range. A lion shredding a gazelles neck until it bleeds out, or a vulture eating a dehydrated animals guts while it's alive is way more cruel. Why don't you stop them instead?
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maths42
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(Original post by Cıllıan)
Question to vegans.

Why do you feel the need to stop us from eating things like eggs or meat even if it's free range. A lion shredding a gazelles neck until it bleeds out, or a vulture eating a dehydrated animals guts while it's alive is way more cruel. Why don't you stop them instead?
Sadly free range often still means chickens being kept in cramped conditions indoors, it can be classed as free range if they have access to outdoor space but in practice the minimal amount of outdoor space often means most chickens don't get to use it - they are stopped by the most dominant ones.

Egg producers don't have a use for male chicks so they often put them into a grinder alive. How can anyone be comfortable supporting this? And all "livestock", whether it's free range or not and whether it's for meat/eggs/dairy, will end up at the slaughterhouse where animals are often abused and it's really not very humane. Not to mention all the abuse inflicted on animals by farmers behind closed doors.

It is upsetting to think of animals being killed by lions, however there's not much we can do about it and it isn't a justification for us to eat meat. Lots of non-human animals kill and rape others of the same species, does that make these things acceptable? Or if you think that behaviours are justified because they're natural, do you think we should live like cavemen and do away with modern life?
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Cıllıan
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(Original post by maths42)
Sadly free range often still means chickens being kept in cramped conditions indoors, it can be classed as free range if they have access to outdoor space but in practice the minimal amount of outdoor space often means most chickens don't get to use it - they are stopped by the most dominant ones.

Egg producers don't have a use for male chicks so they often put them into a grinder alive. How can anyone be comfortable supporting this? And all "livestock", whether it's free range or not and whether it's for meat/eggs/dairy, will end up at the slaughterhouse where animals are often abused and it's really not very humane. Not to mention all the abuse inflicted on animals by farmers behind closed doors.
Fair enough.

(Original post by maths42)
It is upsetting to think of animals being killed by lions, however there's not much we can do about it and it isn't a justification for us to eat meat. Lots of non-human animals kill and rape others of the same species, does that make these things acceptable? Or if you think that behaviours are justified because they're natural, do you think we should live like cavemen and do away with modern life?
Justification is mainly based on whether the benefits outweigh the negatives. Rape has no justification. Eating meat has many benefits, for the body, economy and environment, when done right, and is important in other species for keeping the food chain and ecosystem balanced.
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Lucy Schrödinger
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(Original post by Cıllıan)
Fair enough.



Justification is mainly based on whether the benefits outweigh the negatives. Rape has no justification. Eating meat has many benefits, for the body, economy and environment, when done right, and is important in other species for keeping the food chain and ecosystem balanced.
On the contrary, rape gives you pleasure so it does indeed have a benefit. Outright rejecting this means you are in denial. (Not saying rape is good)

Anyway on topic, they're just animals. They are inferior to us. We have the right to consume them solely due to the fact that we just can - we are the superior species. What is stopping us? Why shouldn't we flourish when we have the opportunity? What do we owe to the animals?

Of course, animal abuse is outright rètarded but if we are consuming them then I dont see why their treatment is important. Only important thing is the quality of the meat.
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Cıllıan
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(Original post by Lucy Schrödinger)
On the contrary, rape gives you pleasure so it does indeed have a benefit. Outright rejecting this means you are in denial. (Not saying rape is good)
5 seconds on pleasure for the sole person does not outweigh the lifelong trauma the victim will face, neither does it benefit the world or anyone else in any way.
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