Billionaires - United States Watch

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psychic_satori
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#81
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#81
(Original post by foolfarian)
Firstly how does that website possibly help you. Infact it totally supports me. It simply adds that if you need to go into prositution etc to make money for food then you are also food insecure.

Secondly my parents are dead
The point is that being food insecure does not correlate to being hungry, as you suggested by your comment ""food insecure" refers to the situation when people need to live with hunger and fear starvation." The percentage of those who are food insecure does not give you the percentage that go hungry. Only 3.4% of the population actually experienced hunger in 2003.
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Jamie
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#82
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#82
(Original post by psychic_satori)
The point is that being food insecure does not correlate to being hungry, as you suggested by your comment ""food insecure" refers to the situation when people need to live with hunger and fear starvation." The percentage of those who are food insecure does not give you the percentage that go hungry. Only 3.4% of the population actually experienced hunger in 2003.
Firstly i dispute your figures
Secondly i'll point out that even when using the second definition (nutrient insufficient - a term im sure ive used before) its not something to be proud of. 12% of americans can barely afford basic nutritions.
Shocking
And that if 'only' (laughs at the idea of 'only' 3.4%) 3.4% of the american population experienced hunger during 2003 thats still around 10 million people.

And no, in this definition someone skipping lunch and feeling hungry does not count!
psychic_satori
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#83
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#83
(Original post by foolfarian)
Firstly i dispute your figures
You can take that up with the US Census Board and the US Dept of Agriculture.

Secondly i'll point out that even when using the second definition (nutrient insufficient - a term im sure ive used before) its not something to be proud of. 12% of americans can barely afford basic nutritions.
Can barely afford, or choose to go without food in favor of other things?

Shocking
And that if 'only' (laughs at the idea of 'only' 3.4%) 3.4% of the american population experienced hunger during 2003 thats still around 10 million people.

And no, in this definition someone skipping lunch and feeling hungry does not count!
As long as you have a free society, there is always going to be a segment of it that goes hungry, because some people are irresponsible and do not take care of themselves. Three percent of the population is not drastic to the point to question the the United States with regards to its goals to combat hunger.
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Kondar
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#84
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#84
(Original post by tkfmbp)
no doubt that is the case. I'm not saying many americans are poor by world standards, that would just be stupid. I'm saying, as Howard has pointed out, that there is a huge difference between Bill Gates et al and the guy who lives in a trailer. Know what i mean ?
Yes, there is a huge difference. What you missed is the fact that the US has a significant and able middle class. In other countries, again such as China, you either drive a BMW or you eat rice and dirt for dinner (extreme, but you get the point). Under capatilism you will always have an unequal distribution of wealth- that is part of it. In the US you dont go from one extreme to the other.

Besides- al the guy living in the trailer probably has running water and a DVD player.
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Kondar
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Howard)
What countries? China? India?
Speaking specifically of the countries I have visited and spent a decent amount of time in...
Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czeck Republic, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Greece, Italy, Peru, Bolivia, Columbia, Panama, China.

I have good friends working in others and I have done research, reports on the social climates in many more.

The point was... that has been overlooked... is the difference in class distinctions that exist in so many countries does not apply to the states. The US has a sea of different incomes where as most countries can lump their citisens into two distince classes- the serfs and the nobles...
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katiesado
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#86
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#86
(Original post by foolfarian)
I insult you because you deserve it.
You come up with trash like this above, and like this
"Well, I will give credit to Walmart for hiring a lot of workers that many other places wouldn't take. They seem to hire quite a few elderly people and even people with learning disabilities, at least from my few adventures in Walmart. So, it's not much of a surprise that they pay their workers little, because they aren't exactly forced to compete to keep these employees."

To suggest that older workers and those with learning difficulties should be paid less for their labour 'because other employers don't want them' is wrong. To vboice support for a company for taking advantage of these vulnerable groups (who would of course get little or no help in the great US of A) is morally reprehensible.
You're right that to pay an elderly person or a person with disabilities less than an able- bodied person doing the same job is morally wrong. However, in your eagerness to be insulting and pander socialism you've missed Satori's point.

The disabled workers are being paid the same amount as others doing the same type of entry level work. Is it fair to the able-bodied people to pay the elderly or disabled people more than them for less work simply because they are disabled or elderly? The wage is low because it's an entry level position, requires no education and few skills. Most of the workers at Walmart are simply cashiers or they stock shelves. In the US where there are plenty of immigrants, teenagers and a slumpy economy there are an abundance of people to fill these types of entry level positions. Walmart does not need competitive wages to woo a workforce and neither do other companies during the present economic situation. That's the way capitalism works (and it does, btw).

In fact many of the positions given to special needs employees at Walmart are created specifically for them and aren't even necessary for the running of the stores- such as greeters (people who hand stickers to little kids at the door and smile at babies). Walmart promotes itself as a corporation that gives back to it's community (how much charity it actually contributes to society I don't know and isn't really necessary to my point). The disabled aren't qualified for the higher paying jobs because they either aren't physically capable of completing the required tasks or are not mentally able. The workers aren't being taken advantage of if they're being offered jobs they couldn't otherwise find.
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Howard
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#87
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#87
(Original post by psychic_satori)
According to the Households Below the Average Income Statistics [at www.dwp.gov.uk], approximately 24% of the population in Britain was living in poverty in 2002. In the United States, approximately 12% of the population is living in poverty [http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/news...rvey/?cnn=yes].
That's bloody meaningless since the definition of poverty (ie how poverty is measured) is not the same in both countries.

Having lived in both countries I can tell you that there is really very little difference in the % of visibly poor between the two countries.
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Howard
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Kondar)
Speaking specifically of the countries I have visited and spent a decent amount of time in...
Russia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czeck Republic, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Greece, Italy, Peru, Bolivia, Columbia, Panama, China.

I have good friends working in others and I have done research, reports on the social climates in many more.

The point was... that has been overlooked... is the difference in class distinctions that exist in so many countries does not apply to the states. The US has a sea of different incomes where as most countries can lump their citisens into two distince classes- the serfs and the nobles...
The middle class in Italy worse off than the poor in the US? I somehow don't think thats correct!
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london_1
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#89
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#89
(Original post by Howard)
You're talking out of your backside. The middle class in Italy worse off than the poor in the US? Yeh.....sure.
The only way to find out is if we visit both places and live with them for one week or so :rolleyes:
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Kondar
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#90
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#90
(Original post by Howard)
You're talking out of your backside. The middle class in Italy worse off than the poor in the US? Yeh.....sure.
You are clinging to a thin thread my friend. Is Italy the only country you are going to challenge me on? Am I to also understand that you conceded every other country I listed? I guess being poor in the US isnt as bad as you have tried to make it out....
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Kondar
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#91
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#91
Alright Debator of the year... you made me dig up an old article from Uni... Maybe you can understand this, now.

"Using national income and expenditure distribution data from 119 countries, Milanovic and Yitzhaki decompose total income inequality between the individuals in the world, by continent and by “region” (countries grouped by income level). They use a Gini decomposition that allows for an exact breakdown (without a residual term) of the overall Gini by recipients.

Next the authors divide the world into three groups: the rich G7 countries (and those with similar income levels), the less developed countries (those with per capita income less than or equal to Brazil’s), and the middle-income countries (those with per capita income between Brazil’s and Italy’s). They find little overlap between such groups—very few people in developing countries have incomes in the range of those in the rich countries. "

Using the national income/expenditure distribution data from these countries, we decompose total inequality between the individuals in the world, by continents and regions. We find that Asia is the most heterogeneous continent; between-country inequality is much more important than inequality in incomes within countries. At the other extreme is Latin America where differences between the countries are small, but inequalities within the countries are large. Western Europe/North America is fairly homogeneous both in terms of countries' mean incomes and income differences between individuals. If we divide the world population into three groups: the rich, the poor, and the middle class, we find that there are only 11 percent of people who are "world middle class"; 78 percent are poor, and 11 percent are rich.

Most international economics will say that there is NO SUCH thing as ‘global poverty’ in the US (global poverty as defined by the World Bank as living on or under 1 US Dollar a day- per person). That being said it would inevitably throw those living under the poverty line (with net assets under 25,000 in the US) into either the world middle class or world upper class profiles- putting them in the top 22% of income brackets world wide and thus higher than 78% of the world.

I think you see my point.
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Howard
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#92
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#92
(Original post by london_1)
The only way to find out is if we visit both places and live with them for one week or so :rolleyes:
Well, I have.
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Howard
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Kondar)
You are clinging to a thin thread my friend. Is Italy the only country you are going to challenge me on? Am I to also understand that you conceded every other country I listed? I guess being poor in the US isnt as bad as you have tried to make it out....
No, actually I'd challenge you on most of the countries you mention with the obvious exception of the ridiculous third world countries you have thrown in (Bolivia is one of the most impoverished nations on earth so if the US can't beat that we're in real trouble)

I also challenge the truth behind you having visited many of these countries at all. The standard of living in Chile and the Czech Republic is actually rather high so I'd be very surprized to find middle class people in those countries living a lesser standard of living than the poor in America.

You also mention Poland which again surprizes me as I know many many "middle class" Polish folks myself who again seem to be faring far better than the poor in the US.
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Douglas
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#94
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#94
(Original post by Howard)
I also challenge the truth behind you having visited many of these countries at all.
If I weren't so polite I'd call you a ********ter.
Oh OH Howard, you've laid down the gauntlet. That thin thread you were walking on, just may have snapped. I think Kondar has been everywhere he's said he's been.

BTW, what would you have called him if you hadn't been sooo polite??
Vienna
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#95
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#95
(Original post by Douglas)
Oh OH Howard, you've laid down the gauntlet. That thin thread you were walking on, just may have snapped. I think Kondar has been everywhere he's said he's been.

BTW, what would you have called him if you hadn't been sooo polite??
off topic: ooh, abit of controversy that doesnt involve me!
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Kondar
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#96
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#96
(Original post by Howard)
No, actually I'd challenge you on most of the countries you mention with the obvious exception of the ridiculous third world countries you have thrown in (Bolivia is one of the most impoverished nations on earth so if the US can't beat that we're in real trouble)
Alright, then why don’t you actually challenge me instead of SAYING you are going to challenge me. I stated facts that support my cause, lets see some from your side. If you feel like stepping up to the plate, then go back to my previous thread and read what I said.

And ‘facts’ like “I know this one "middle class" Polish guy and he lives well” might work with others, but it wont work with me.

I await your response...
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Howard
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#97
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#97
(Original post by Kondar)
Alright smart guy, then why don’t you actually challenge me instead of SAYING you are going to challenge me. I stated facts that support my cause, lets see some from your side. Foul and obnoxious language, sarcasm, and hot air might have gotten you debater of the year, but it doesn’t get you anywhere with me. I can spot you a mile away, your use of all these juvenile tactics only highlight your inability to either debate or discuss issues here. But, if you feel like stepping up to the plate, then go back to my previous thread and read what I said. FACTS, not just hot air and insults, otherwise, don’t waste my time.

And ‘facts’ like “I know this one "middle class" Polish guy and he lives well” might work with others, but it wont work with me.

If I weren’t so polite I would say that you were an idiot. 

I await your response...
Most international economics will say that there is NO SUCH thing as ‘global poverty’ in the US (global poverty as defined by the World Bank as living on or under 1 US Dollar a day- per person). That being said it would inevitably throw those living under the poverty line (with net assets under 25,000 in the US) into either the world middle class or world upper class profiles- putting them in the top 22% of income brackets world wide and thus higher than 78% of the world.

This really proves that one can do just about anything with statistics. Let's take a look at it. What it is saying is that a person with net assets under $25,000 in the US would, if they lived in a "world average" country be considered middle class. But the "world average" country includes such places as the Sudan, Afghanistan, Chad, and many many more like it where poverty is so rife that you could probably retire on $25k in the lap of luxury.

Now I don't have the time or inclination to pour through lots and lots of statistics (like the meaningless one's you have selected) but let's think about some attributes of a middle class Pole for example. I think you'll find that college education is common, as is home/vehicle ownership, and all the other "quality of life" type things (vacations/decent furnishings etc) that we associate with "middleclassness" Now let's have a look at the poor American with a net worth (I assume that's what they mean by net assets) of $25k. $25K in the US is such a desultary (you couldn't buy the front porch of my house for that) amount of money it is unreal. This person is very unlikely to exhibit any of the middleclass lifestyle our Polish friend enjoys.

I'm afraid your statistics are meaningless as far as the point you are trying to make. I know you hate anecdotes and prefer to rake as gospel anything a statitician tells you without bothering to explore it on an apples for apples basis but take a drive around East St.Louis (poor America) and then take a drive around a middle class neighborhood in Crakow. I know where I'd rather live.

Now, either I've been in a myopic state during the time I have lived variously in the UK, the US, Guatemala, Mexico, Uzbekistan, and Belize (the country of my birth) and travelled certainly as extensively (if not more so) as you or you are

a) lying about where you have been or
b) suffering from the fairly typical America delusion that the rest of the world (including Europe) is populated by people who live from subsistence turnip farming, wear quant little "traditional costumes", and still throw their slops directly out of the top window of their mud huts or
c) all of the above
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Howard
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#98
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#98
(Original post by Kondar)
And ‘facts’ like “I know this one "middle class" Polish guy and he lives well” might work with others, but it wont work with me.
My wife is Polish, from a middle class family in Slupsk on the balitic sea (not far from Gdansk) Her family lives far far far better than the "poor Americans" I know that live close to me. No comparison pal.
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Kondar
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#99
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#99
(Original post by Howard)
This really proves that one can do just about anything with statistics. Let's take a look at it. What it is saying is that a person with net assets under $25,000 in the US would, if they lived in a "world average" country be considered middle class. But the "world average" country includes such places as the Sudan, Afghanistan, Chad, and many many more like it where poverty is so rife that you could probably retire on $25k in the lap of luxury.

Now I don't have the time or inclination to pour through lots and lots of statistics (like the meaningless one's you have selected) but let's think about some attributes of a middle class Pole for example. I think you'll find that college education is common, as is home/vehicle ownership, and all the other "quality of life" type things (vacations/decent furnishings etc) that we associate with "middleclassness"
Based on what?? The small handful of people you know? Pathetic.
Now let's have a look at the poor American with a net worth (I assume that's what they mean by net assets) of $25k. $25K in the US is such a desultary (you couldn't buy the front porch of my house for that) amount of money it is unreal. This person is very unlikely to exhibit any of the middleclass lifestyle our Polish friend enjoys.
BS, I coached a little league and soccer team in downtown Raleigh for two years. Most of the kids on the team came from the ghettos and slums of Raleigh. They might of lived in a bad neighborhood, but they still had DVD players and computers, had meat for dinner every night, running water, electricity, cable, etc… How many middle class people in Africa (if there is a such thing as middle class in Africa) have that kind of lifestyle. And you chose to use a tourist city like Crakow as your example??! I spent some time there, with a middle class family I might add. I had all my bags stolen (I still have the police report) and then when I was leaving for Praque I watched some poor old homeless guy get the crap beat out of him in the bus station (because he was drunk and peed all over the floor). It was a real gem.
I'm afraid your statistics are meaningless as far as the point you are trying to make. I know you hate anecdotes and prefer to rake as gospel anything a statitician tells you without bothering to explore it on an apples for apples basis but take a drive around East St.Louis (poor America) and then take a drive around a middle class neighborhood in Crakow. I know where I'd rather live.

Now, either I've been in a myopic state during the time I have lived variously in the UK, the US, Guatemala, Mexico, Uzbekistan, and Belize (the country of my birth) and travelled certainly as extensively (if not more so) as you or you are

a) lying about where you have been or
b) suffering from the fairly typical America delusion that the rest of the world (including Europe) is populated by people who live from subsistence turnip farming, wear quant little "traditional costumes", and still throw their slops directly out of the top window of their mud huts or
c) all of the above
I apologize for including meaningless “facts,” useless “information,” and worthless “research.” I won’t bother to waste your time with such obvious trivialities again. From now no I will try my best to stick with hearsay, rhetoric, and childish insults when speaking with someone as scholarly as yourself.

I say that you put your money where your mouth is. I bet you 1,000$ USD that I can prove (with stamps and visas) the number of places I have visited and the amount of time I have spent there.
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Howard
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#100
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#100
(Original post by Kondar)
Based on what?? The small handful of people you know? Pathetic. BS, I coached a little league and soccer team in downtown Raleigh for two years. Most of the kids on the team came from the ghettos and slums of Raleigh. They might of lived in a bad neighborhood, but they still had DVD players and computers, had meat for dinner every night, running water, electricity, cable, etc… How many middle class people in Africa (if there is a such thing as middle class in Africa) have that kind of lifestyle. And you chose to use a tourist city like Crakow as your example??! I spent some time there, with a middle class family I might add. I had all my bags stolen (I still have the police report) and then when I was leaving for Praque I watched some poor old homeless guy get the crap beat out of him in the bus station (because he was drunk and peed all over the floor). It was a real gem.
I apologize for including meaningless “facts,” useless “information,” and worthless “research.” I won’t bother to waste your time with such obvious trivialities again. From now no I will try my best to stick with hearsay, rhetoric, and childish insults when speaking with someone as scholarly as yourself.

I say that you put your money where your mouth is. I bet you 1,000$ USD that I can prove (with stamps and visas) the number of places I have visited and the amount of time I have spent there.
What is it you don't understand? Give someone in Guatemala $25k and they will certainly be middle class. That does'nt make a man in East St.Louis with $25k net assets middle class. By your statistical model he may be pidgeon holed as "globally middle class" but that's irrelevent since he doesn't live in an imaginary world average country; he lives in the US which makes him pisspoor. That's why I think your statistics, are completely irrelevent to everyone except the unachieving economist that no doubt got a PHd for putting them together.

Of course there are middle classes in Africa. There are middle classes in just about every country you care to mention. And your anecdotal evidence (amazing how you critisize me for it's use and then use it yourself)about having your bags stolen in Crakow really cracks me up.....erm....that happens just about everywhere in the world doesn't it? Your additional anecdote about seeing a tramp take a thumping doesn't do much either......don't tell me it's rare for the homeless to be beaten & murdered in the US (sorry....I forgot....there probably are no homeless in the US.....or if there are they still enjoy, DVD players, plasma TVs and Nike tennis shoes :rolleyes: )

And no, I'm not going to start getting personal with you and exchanging home phone numbers, email addresses etc so you can prove to me where you've been. You may well have been to all of the places you mention; the shame of it all is that you seem not only ignorant of these countries but, sadder still, also of how the poor in your own country live. It's also rather a pity that you cannot distinguish gross income/net assets/ from one country to another and how that translates into "quality of life" and "middleclassness"
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