Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls in women's sports as unfair

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Napp
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Well this is interesting, from the horses mouth, as it were.
I dont doubt some of our more.. outspoken, users here will be quick to condemn Ms Jenner as a raging transphobe for these comments with a blistering amount of irony attached no less.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56960011
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QE2
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(Original post by Napp)
Well this is interesting, from the horses mouth, as it were.
I dont doubt some of our more.. outspoken, users here will be quick to condemn Ms Jenner as a raging transphobe for these comments with a blistering amount of irony attached no less.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56960011
She is not a transphobe. She is just wrong. It is not "unfair", as supported by the evidence that trans-women athletes are generally outperformed by born-female athletes.
What she is doing is appealing to her support base in a political campaign.
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Napp
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QE2's stunningly sophisticated logic train of 'she's wrong' followed by an insult, i'm shocked. Less so by its not knowing what a transphobe is but thats hardly surprising given the low quality of its posting/trolling.
Last edited by Napp; 4 days ago
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by QE2)
What she is doing is appealing to her support base in a political campaign.
We'll pass thanks.

I'd rather vote for Newsom and his hot wife.
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Joleee
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it's not that interesting to me tbh. Caitlyn Jenner has a historical mixed bag of feelings about rights for the LGBTQ community and politics in general for as long as i've known her. i mean, it wasn't that long ago that she was against same-sex marriage and was also a Trump supporter.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...orial-bid/amp/

Jenner is also a former Olympic athlete so realistically what's she supposed to say to that question? deny that there are biological differences between a cisgendered woman and a transgendered woman? if she ran in a women's Olympic race back in the 70s that she would not possibly have had an advantage over other female athletes? twould be very bad for her campaign, bearing in mind the Governor has no say in any sports association or has the ability to pass laws so for me it's a bit of a stupid question to ask.
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Napp
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(Original post by Joleee)
it's not that interesting to me tbh. Caitlyn Jenner has a historical mixed bag of feelings about rights for the LGBTQ community and politics in general for as long as i've known her. i mean, it wasn't that long ago that she was against same-sex marriage and was also a Trump supporter.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...orial-bid/amp/

Jenner is also a former Olympic athlete so realistically what's she supposed to say to that question? deny that there are biological differences between a cisgendered woman and a transgendered woman? if she ran in a women's Olympic race back in the 70s that she would not possibly have had an advantage over other female athletes? twould be very bad for her campaign, bearing in mind the Governor has no say in any sports association or has the ability to pass laws so for me it's a bit of a stupid question to ask.
It is quite impressive the whiplash shes giving people with some of her more..esoteric politics views :lol: Almost as bad as her lunatic former son in law (or however theyre related) Mr West.
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one_two_three
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Sports with transgendered women already involved show that they have an advantage over cis women. I suppose a lot depends on when someone transitions i.e. if they block puberty that would be different to if they went through puberty. You cannot deny the effect of years worth of testosterone on athletic performance.
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QE2
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(Original post by Napp)
QE2's stunningly sophisticated logic train of 'she's wrong' followed by an insult, i'm shocked. Less so by its not knowing what a transphobe is but thats hardly surprising given the low quality of its posting/trolling.
Lol! You never fail to fail.
My comment "she's wrong" was followed by an evidence based explanation for why she is wrong.

You, on the other hand, just seem to make thinly-veiled, passive/aggressive posts about right-wing dog-whistle issues. My comment wan't an "insult" but merely an observation.
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QE2
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(Original post by one_two_three)
Sports with transgendered women already involved show that they have an advantage over cis women.
Does it? Care to name a sport where the top performers or record holders are trans-women?
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one_two_three
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(Original post by QE2)
Does it? Care to name a sport where the top performers or record holders are trans-women?
Transwomen are few and far between in sport because rarely have they participated in sport at a younger age to a level which would allow them to compete professionally. Rachel McKinnon in cycling. Caster Semenya is not transgender but she is intersex and has naturally elevated testosterone levels due to XY chromosomes. I appreciate that is a different circumstance as she has lived her whole life as a woman and found out she was intersex because of athletics but the affect of elevated testosterone levels is obvious in her results.

I do not think that transwomen cannot participate in sport at an amateur level but at a professional level with a financial gain I think that there is an unfair advantage.
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ThatOldGuy
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(Original post by QE2)
She is not a transphobe. She is just wrong. It is not "unfair", as supported by the evidence that trans-women athletes are generally outperformed by born-female athletes.
What she is doing is appealing to her support base in a political campaign.
(Original post by QE2)
Lol! You never fail to fail.
My comment "she's wrong" was followed by an evidence based explanation for why she is wrong.

You, on the other hand, just seem to make thinly-veiled, passive/aggressive posts about right-wing dog-whistle issues. My comment wan't an "insult" but merely an observation.
You made a claim of evidence, but didn't actually provide it.

I would point to trans record-holders Mary Gregory for weightlifting(Stripped due to her trans nature), Cece Telfer (Track and field record holder), Tiffany Abreu (Women's Volleyball) and Rachel McKinnon (Cycling). I'm sure there's more. That's just the ones I'm aware of.

I don't know of any legitimate studies of Trans vs CIS performance. It does seem anecdotally that if records are being shattered within a shockingly short time of introduction by a tiny proportion of people that we might want to do a root cause analysis before solidifying the results.
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QE2
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(Original post by one_two_three)
Transwomen are few and far between in sport because rarely have they participated in sport at a younger age to a level which would allow them to compete professionally.
So the hair-pulling, shirt-ripping "BuT iT's uNfAiR oN nOrMaL wOmEn!1!" argument is meaningless.

Rachel McKinnon in cycling.
She is nowhere near the level of the top women's cyclists. Also, the cis-gender woman she beat in the Master's category had beaten Ivy in the past, so where was this "unfair advantage" then?

Caster Semenya is not transgender but she is intersex and has naturally elevated testosterone levels due to XY chromosomes. I appreciate that is a different circumstance as she has lived her whole life as a woman and found out she was intersex because of athletics but the affect of elevated testosterone levels is obvious in her results.
1. So not transgender.
2. Transgender women have to suppress their testosterone levels as a matter of course. They are tested in the same way as cis-women are.

I do not think that transwomen cannot participate in sport at an amateur level but at a professional level with a financial gain I think that there is an unfair advantage.
Whoah! Either they have an unfair advantage, or they don't. (They clearly don't, as the evidence shows).
Do you also think that performance enhancing drugs should be allowed in amateur sport?
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one_two_three
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It isn't a meaningless argument - the western world has changed significantly in a short period of time. It would have been unthinkable for many trangender people to live how they do now 20 years ago. So the amount of people that enter professional sport is going to be extremely small - but that is not to say that the amount of people involved will not increase.

You will struggle to see transgender women in the top flight of sport at the moment because of the above reason - an elite athlete is not born overnight. Not because of the reasons you put forward.

Caster Semenya also has to suppress her testosterone levels but the advantage she has gained over the years remains. She may not be transgender but she is intersex and has elevated testosterone levels as a result, similar to a transwoman.

My last point you have taken out of context - I maintain that transwomen have an unfair advantage. Do I care when I play a sport that I participate in purely because I love the sport? No. I don't think anyone should be excluded from a sport which is at an amateur level. Would I care if I was to gain financially and it was my career? Yes I would.

I don't think anyone should take performance enhancing drugs at any level. But again, if I don't stand to gain financially, do I care if someone else is damaging their body? No I don't. Before you jump on that comment, performance enhancing drugs do damage people's bodies - particularly at an amateur level where there is not money to pay for the proper knowledge and oversight.

You have asked for evidence of transwomen in sport having an advantage and you have been given the names of those people, and you have not as yet provided the evidence that they don't have an advantage. I can appreciate with the relative newness of transwomen in sport the studies will be sparse, but in the absence of those studies I do believe that there are studies on doping in women's sports that provides evidence that there is a distinct advantage in having (or have had) elevated testosterone levels. The difference between doping and transwomen is the difference between synthetic and naturally occurring.
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QE2
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(Original post by ThatOldGuy)
I would point to trans record-holders Mary Gregory for weightlifting(Stripped due to her trans nature),
She wasn't a trans-woman at the time so was not eligible.

Cece Telfer (Track and field record holder),
Telfer's winning time was more than 5 seconds slower than the record held by a cis-woman.
Do you consider all women running the 400m in Telfer's time or quicker to have an "unfair advantage" over slower runners?

Tiffany Abreu (Women's Volleyball)
As her team loses games to all cis-women teams and does not always win titles, where is the "unfair advantage"?

and Rachel McKinnon (Cycling).
See post above.

I'm sure there's more. That's just the ones I'm aware of.
Yes, there are trans-women who compete in sports, but not at the highest level, and those at higher levels are regularly beaten by cis-women.
You may as well say that a woman with unusual height, strength, speed or stamina has an "unfair advantage" over other women.


It does seem anecdotally that if records are being shattered within a shockingly short time of introduction by a tiny proportion of people that we might want to do a root cause analysis before solidifying the results.
But they aren't. Elite world records are all held by cis-women.


Cis-women are women. If they happen to perform better than some other women, then that's just the nature of sport. Would you ban everyone who is exceptional at sport? Obviously not. The agenda is transparent.
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Starship Trooper
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I agree with QE2 there is nothing wrong with the above! :p:p

Really there shouldn't be any women's or men's sport's (we're all human) nobody watches women sports anyway. Frankly gendered sports just reinforces cis privilege. If all of the top sports teams happen to be biological men then that this is just a coincidence
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Bushyasta
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Well well well... What have we got here?!?!
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Bushyasta
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(Original post by Napp)
Well this is interesting, from the horses mouth, as it were.
I dont doubt some of our more.. outspoken, users here will be quick to condemn Ms Jenner as a raging transphobe for these comments with a blistering amount of irony attached no less.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56960011
Good morning Mr Napp!

Soon you will be attracting a lot of attention!
Mr Foitre will be here at any moment...
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Bushyasta
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(Original post by Napp)
Well this is interesting, from the horses mouth, as it were.
I dont doubt some of our more.. outspoken, users here will be quick to condemn Ms Jenner as a raging transphobe for these comments with a blistering amount of irony attached no less.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56960011
You don't need anything else rather than common sense to understand that those who were born men will likely have an advantage over women regardless of the whether they decided to change their gender sometime down the road. It could be in many cases unfair to women who compete in a sport against a transwoman.

Careful!! Mr Foitre will be here soon...
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fallen_acorns
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This is one of those topics that infuriates me, but finding the motivation to point out the same thing time and time again is hard.

Just follow the series of factual questions, and see where the logic goes...

Do trans women have an average physical advantage over cis women? yes.
Is sport largely based around unfair physical advantages already? yes.
Do trans women exist on anywhere near a sufficient level to shift the needle of fairness in sport even a little? no.

You end up having two layers of the same arguments. The right just wants to argue about the first half, which they are correct about, yes trans women do have on average physical advantages over cis women. The left though wants to argue the second part, does that advantage matter in an environment that is already incredibly unequal, and is making it a tiny bit more unequal worth helping a marginalised group? I would say the left is right here, including trans people makes very little difference to the fairness of women's sport, but it makes a big difference to trans people themselves.

The reason the debate becomes frustraiting is because neither side is willing to give ground. So you end up with people on the left lying to themselves that trans people don't actually have any advantage, and people on the right pretending that sport is this perfectly fair arrangement that worked wonderfully and equally before those pesky trans people came and messed it up.
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ThatOldGuy
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(Original post by QE2)


Cis-women are women. If they happen to perform better than some other women, then that's just the nature of sport. Would you ban everyone who is exceptional at sport? Obviously not. The agenda is transparent.
Then why have women's sports at all? Just have 'Sports' and let anybody who identifies as anything join in.

Once you can answer that without mental gymnastics, you'll have the answer to your own question.
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