If you’re born in England are you English (by nationality) even if you’re not White o

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DiamondDia
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If you’re born in England are you English (by nationality) even if you’re not White or “native” to England. For example, can a Black person born in Ireland call themselves Irish etc.

Just had a whole debate about this with my mum.
Last edited by DiamondDia; 1 month ago
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glassalice
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I don't think that there is a living person in the UK who could honestly refer to themself as a 'native'. We are a nation of migrants.

Those that do are likely racists who could really do with opening a history book or two.

Black people belong in England and have every right to refer to themselves as English.
Last edited by glassalice; 1 month ago
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ROTL94
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Ethnically, no, culturally and socially (the things that actually matter), yes.
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Vapordave
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Depends on self-identification, as English isn't currently a citizenship. Personally, despite being born and raised in England and being able to trace my ancestry back to England, I am somewhat reluctant to identify as English. I don't at all mind being called English though so I suppose the answer is yes.

It's far easier with actual citizenships, such as Irish.
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londonmyst
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Yes- I believe so.

But I think that place of birth is not as relevant as effective assimilation, maintaining very strong personal ties to england, having obtained residency/citizenship legally, the personal identification of "english" (rather than british/manc/scouser) and viewing england as home.
My best friend identifies as english.
She is asian, was born in India, has spent most of her life in england and successfully applied for uk citizenship when she was in her late teens.
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DiamondDia
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(Original post by glassalice)
I don't think that there is any living person in the UK who could honestly refer to themself as a 'native'. We are a nation of migrants.

Those that do are likely racists who could really do with opening a history book or two.

Black people belong in England and have every right to refer to themselves as English.
I’m Black and I’ve always been told I can’t be a “Native” because I’m not “from here” and also can’t be called English for some reason, I just wanted to know what’s up with that. <3
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glassalice
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(Original post by DiamondDia)
I’m Black and I’ve always been told I can’t be a “Native” because I’m not “from here” and also can’t be called English for some reason, I just wanted to know what’s up with that. <3
They are correct in a sense, you are not a native, but neither are they.
Through time, the British Isles have been repeatedly invaded by other countries/ empires.
There are no natives left!

It's "just" racism.
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DiamondDia
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(Original post by glassalice)
They are correct in a sense, you are not a native, but neither are they.
Through time, the British Isles have been repeatedly invaded by other countries/ empires.
There are no natives left!

It's "just" racism.
PRSOM I “agree”.
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Surnia
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(Original post by DiamondDia)
If you’re born in England are you English (by nationality) even if you’re not White or “native” to England. For example, can a Black person born in Ireland call themselves Irish etc.

Just had a whole debate about this with my mum.
A lot of clueless peoole on here. 'Native' can mean 'one born in a particular place' so if you were born, say, in Manchester you could correctly talk about your 'native England' as your country of origin or being a 'Manchester native'.

Skin colour has nothing to do with it. Why would it?
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Final Fantasy
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(Original post by DiamondDia)
I’m Black and I’ve always been told I can’t be a “Native” because I’m not “from here” and also can’t be called English for some reason, I just wanted to know what’s up with that. <3
Move to Wales. You can be Welsh like me. It's much better anyway.
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Proxenus
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i am Chinese who is British. i am not English
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BitMel
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If you're talking about ethnicity- no. That's like an English person moving to Nigeria and expecting everyone to think they're nigerian... nobody would take you seriously or like me moving to China and expecting to be called Chinese lmao. Culturally yes. Nationality wise- well technically you need to be able to have a passport to said country to be able to claim nationality and there's so such thing as an English passport so i guess again no? (but yes to British). Honestly i've met very little black or non-white people who think they're English or as English/British as ethnically- English people. I remember this advertisement about not asking where non-white minorities where they're from and insinuating they are as English and the push back from Africans and Eastern Europeans and some Caribbeans was crazy. (- but that's just a side note)

(But if you reallyyy want to get into it, technically yes if someone who is biracial (half black, half English) and someone full black african/carribean had a child because then while they'd be considered black/ "fully black" most of the time, they're still 1/4 ethnically english).
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anonymous#192
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Personally I think what you identify as depends on more than just where you were born. I was born in England but both of my parents were born and raised in Ireland. I have spent my whole life going back and forth between England and Ireland (although I have never lived in Ireland), I have an Irish passport (and have never had a British one) and all of my family is Irish. I identify as Irish because my parents have brought me up with Irish traditions that aren’t celebrated in England, and traditions that are very celebrated in England I don’t celebrate as much because that’s not how I was brought up. Although I have an English accent (which tbh is only really half English due to my parents retaining their accents) I wasn’t really brought up with English ‘culture’ in the same way that my friends with non-immigrant parents were.

In response to your question, if you are black and born in England than you can certainly identify as British as this is a nationality however I don’t think you can say you’re English in the same way that I can’t say I’m English, despite being white, because English is to do with ethnicity, and therefore genetics. I also see no reason why you can’t identify as any other nationality that you’re linked to. Nationality is more than just where you were born, it’s where you were raised, the culture you were surrounded by, etc. Whereas ethnicity is solely to do with where your ancestors are from.

At the end of the day, as others have already said, England is full of various generations of migrants who identify as all sorts of nationalities
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-Imperator-
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Obviously black people can be English in terms of nationality/country of birth/cultural identity.
The only way in which black people can't be English is in terms of ethnicity.
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Purplemonkeys
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(Original post by DiamondDia)
If you’re born in England are you English (by nationality) even if you’re not White or “native” to England. For example, can a Black person born in Ireland call themselves Irish etc.

Just had a whole debate about this with my mum.
I'm sorry but whoever's arguing that black people born and raised in England aren't English is being racist, straight up.
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Theloniouss
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(Original post by glassalice)
They are correct in a sense, you are not a native, but neither are they.
Through time, the British Isles have been repeatedly invaded by other countries/ empires.
There are no natives left!

It's "just" racism.
I don't really agree with this. By the logic of "your ancestors migrated here, therefore you're not a native" literally nobody (except maybe east Africans) can be considered natives.
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BitMel
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(Original post by Purplemonkeys)
I'm sorry but whoever's arguing that black people born and raised in England aren't English is being racist, straight up.
Not to be rude but have you actually spoken to many black people before... because many say the exact same thing...
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HoldThisL
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being english is both a legal status - with a binary answer - and a cultural one - which is has much blurrier boundaries and is more self defined, so the answer is yes
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Cryoraptor
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In terms of ethnicity, I believe black people born in the UK are referred to as Black British, so in that sense, maybe? In terms of citizenship, English isn't a citizenship, so I suppose it's based on how genealogically English you are, which would make it a no? Personally I have no issue with a black person born in England calling themselves English on a geographical and cultural level. Since it's not a citizenship, even though I am white, I'm not really that English. I am of Irish, Welsh, Scottish, French Canadian, Gypsy (Romani I'm pretty sure) and Maltese background as well as English, which makes me only something like 30% English by genealogy. That 30% is then divided into Early Modern Dutch via the Channel, Hugenots of the same period, Scandinavian Vikings of the Middle Ages, Angles, Jutes and Frisians of the Anglo-Saxon invasion, and a touch of native Brittonic which would be largely indistinguishable from my more recent Welsh ancestry. Oh, and let's not forget, the first person who had my surname came from Devon, meaning there's more Old Cornish/Brittonic in there at some point, and then they moved to Yorkshire during the Middle Ages which means some more Frisian, Anglic, Scandinavian and native Brittonic in there, before they finally moved to Kent where we all live now bar a few. That basically means through all my ancestral paths, I am a descendant of essentially every group in Europe, the Middle East, Persia, North India and North Africa, and through those I am probably a descendant of even more peoples such as Turkic peoples and early Sub-Saharan Africans.

The point is, I as a white person am really not that 'native' and have ancestry in several non-European groups, and I'd still be called 'English' as I was born here, and so in the modern era it has nothing to do with race. If you feel like you are culturally and socially English, call yourself English. I'm probably not much more English than you and most of my ancestors are probably not the original Anglo-Saxon Germanic peoples that went on to establish England.
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anonymous#192
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(Original post by BitMel)
Not to be rude but have you actually spoken to many black people before... because many say the exact same thing...
I think they might be making the point that a black person can choose to identify as being English, despite being black and that anyone who says black people arent ‘allowed’ identify as English is wrong. Rather than that all black people born in England can only be English despite being brought up with different cultures, traditions, etc
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