How is Keir Starmer doing?
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They are far right nationalists who hate the working class. The far right always have.
Original post by CathScottish
They are far right nationalists who hate the working class. The far right always have.
Deflection! Refocus back to what you are deflecting from.
How is Boris far right? Answer that If you won't (can't) explain your statement that the tories are far right? Also, how is a domestic argument worthy of media attention?
I can just keep asking till you answer, says more about you than me
@DSilva team Starmer just keep on winning. Anyone who disagrees is a trot who needs to be expelled from the party.
Original post by Starship Trooper
@DSilva team Starmer just keep on winning. Anyone who disagrees is a trot who needs to be expelled from the party.
God almighty, are people really sharing tweets like this?!
Original post by Starship Trooper
@DSilva team Starmer just keep on winning. Anyone who disagrees is a trot who needs to be expelled from the party.
Quite!
As SF alludes to, one obviously can't compare raw vote numbers in a by election to a general election due to turnout.
Having said that though, there's little indication that Starmer's Labour is winning over any tory voters or non voters. Labour seem intent on kidding themselves that Starmer is going to be Blair 2.0. Ideologically he probably is similar to Blair, however he has nowhere near the charisma, passion or electability that Blair did.
(edited 2 years ago)
Starmer may well have done okay in the 90s and 2000s when technocratic centrism/third way poltics was dominant.
However politics is now much more about emotion and belonging. These days the successful political movements and leaders are those who pick clear sides on big issues, rally their base and fight tooth and nail for the cause. They don't give an inch to their opponents. Trump gets it, the Brexit camp got it, Corbyn in 2017 got it (to an extent).
Biden won because there was enough of an anti trump sentiment. However he never had a 'base' FOR him, which is why his ratings in office are plummeting.
It's why I think AOC is very underestimated by Republicans. In many ways she's the lefts Trump equivalent - says what she thinks, doesn't compromise, powerful orator and loves attacking her own side.
As for Starmer, it's possible that the public turn against Johnson and the Tories after 12 years in govt and Starmer wins almost by default. But I certainly can't see any situation in which he surges to victory of his own accord.
@Starship Trooper
However politics is now much more about emotion and belonging. These days the successful political movements and leaders are those who pick clear sides on big issues, rally their base and fight tooth and nail for the cause. They don't give an inch to their opponents. Trump gets it, the Brexit camp got it, Corbyn in 2017 got it (to an extent).
Biden won because there was enough of an anti trump sentiment. However he never had a 'base' FOR him, which is why his ratings in office are plummeting.
It's why I think AOC is very underestimated by Republicans. In many ways she's the lefts Trump equivalent - says what she thinks, doesn't compromise, powerful orator and loves attacking her own side.
As for Starmer, it's possible that the public turn against Johnson and the Tories after 12 years in govt and Starmer wins almost by default. But I certainly can't see any situation in which he surges to victory of his own accord.
@Starship Trooper
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by DSilva
Starmer may well have done okay in the 90s and 2000s when technocratic centrism/third way poltics was dominant.
However politics is now much more about emotion and belonging. These days the successful political movements and leaders are those who pick clear sides on big issues, rally their base and fight tooth and nail for the cause. They don't give an inch to their opponents. Trump gets it, the Brexit camp got it, Corbyn in 2017 got it (to an extent).
Biden won because there was enough of an anti trump sentiment. However he never had a 'base' FOR him, which is why his ratings in office are plummeting.
It's why I think AOC is very underestimated by Republicans. In many ways she's the lefts Trump equivalent - says what she thinks, doesn't compromise, powerful orator and loves attacking her own side.
As for Starmer, it's possible that the public turn against Johnson and the Tories after 12 years in govt and Starmer wins almost by default. But I certainly can't see any situation in which he surges to victory of his own accord.
@Starship Trooper
However politics is now much more about emotion and belonging. These days the successful political movements and leaders are those who pick clear sides on big issues, rally their base and fight tooth and nail for the cause. They don't give an inch to their opponents. Trump gets it, the Brexit camp got it, Corbyn in 2017 got it (to an extent).
Biden won because there was enough of an anti trump sentiment. However he never had a 'base' FOR him, which is why his ratings in office are plummeting.
It's why I think AOC is very underestimated by Republicans. In many ways she's the lefts Trump equivalent - says what she thinks, doesn't compromise, powerful orator and loves attacking her own side.
As for Starmer, it's possible that the public turn against Johnson and the Tories after 12 years in govt and Starmer wins almost by default. But I certainly can't see any situation in which he surges to victory of his own accord.
@Starship Trooper
Prsom: Spot on other than the bit about AOC: She's no Corbyn. She'll talk a good talk but if Pelosi tells her to jump she'll ask how high.
Of course we have a similar problem in the GOP.
And as for energising the base. Well there's possibly a moderate base of democrats that seem reasonable to the average voter.
-universal health care
-ban assault rifles
-support for LGBT and immigrants
-Fighting climate change
-economic support for lower and middle earners.
But there is a louder and growing group of activists that overshadow the first because the above are too weak to challenge them.
-Abolish/defund the police
- open borders
-Teach white children they're evil
-free gender transition for children
-post birth Abortion
My view is that the average voter would rather the most fringe MAGA people get into power than the people that support the above.
@TCA2b
Original post by Starship Trooper
Prsom: Spot on other than the bit about AOC: She's no Corbyn. She'll talk a good talk but if Pelosi tells her to jump she'll ask how high.
Of course we have a similar problem in the GOP.
And as for energising the base. Well there's possibly a moderate base of democrats that seem reasonable to the average voter.
-universal health care
-ban assault rifles
-support for LGBT and immigrants
-Fighting climate change
-economic support for lower and middle earners.
But there is a louder and growing group of activists that overshadow the first because the above are too weak to challenge them.
-Abolish/defund the police
- open borders
-Teach white children they're evil
-free gender transition for children
-post birth Abortion
My view is that the average voter would rather the most fringe MAGA people get into power than the people that support the above.
@TCA2b
Of course we have a similar problem in the GOP.
And as for energising the base. Well there's possibly a moderate base of democrats that seem reasonable to the average voter.
-universal health care
-ban assault rifles
-support for LGBT and immigrants
-Fighting climate change
-economic support for lower and middle earners.
But there is a louder and growing group of activists that overshadow the first because the above are too weak to challenge them.
-Abolish/defund the police
- open borders
-Teach white children they're evil
-free gender transition for children
-post birth Abortion
My view is that the average voter would rather the most fringe MAGA people get into power than the people that support the above.
@TCA2b
Add eating bugs to that last one, or "just stop being poor and get an electric car, bruh".
Original post by Starship Trooper
Prsom: Spot on other than the bit about AOC: She's no Corbyn. She'll talk a good talk but if Pelosi tells her to jump she'll ask how high.
Of course we have a similar problem in the GOP.
And as for energising the base. Well there's possibly a moderate base of democrats that seem reasonable to the average voter.
-universal health care
-ban assault rifles
-support for LGBT and immigrants
-Fighting climate change
-economic support for lower and middle earners.
But there is a louder and growing group of activists that overshadow the first because the above are too weak to challenge them.
-Abolish/defund the police
- open borders
-Teach white children they're evil
-free gender transition for children
-post birth Abortion
My view is that the average voter would rather the most fringe MAGA people get into power than the people that support the above.
@TCA2b
Of course we have a similar problem in the GOP.
And as for energising the base. Well there's possibly a moderate base of democrats that seem reasonable to the average voter.
-universal health care
-ban assault rifles
-support for LGBT and immigrants
-Fighting climate change
-economic support for lower and middle earners.
But there is a louder and growing group of activists that overshadow the first because the above are too weak to challenge them.
-Abolish/defund the police
- open borders
-Teach white children they're evil
-free gender transition for children
-post birth Abortion
My view is that the average voter would rather the most fringe MAGA people get into power than the people that support the above.
@TCA2b
Do you think Johnson is closer to the Starmer end of politics, or the Trump one?
Original post by DSilva
Starmer may well have done okay in the 90s and 2000s when technocratic centrism/third way poltics was dominant.
However politics is now much more about emotion and belonging. These days the successful political movements and leaders are those who pick clear sides on big issues, rally their base and fight tooth and nail for the cause. They don't give an inch to their opponents. Trump gets it, the Brexit camp got it, Corbyn in 2017 got it (to an extent).
Biden won because there was enough of an anti trump sentiment. However he never had a 'base' FOR him, which is why his ratings in office are plummeting.
It's why I think AOC is very underestimated by Republicans. In many ways she's the lefts Trump equivalent - says what she thinks, doesn't compromise, powerful orator and loves attacking her own side.
As for Starmer, it's possible that the public turn against Johnson and the Tories after 12 years in govt and Starmer wins almost by default. But I certainly can't see any situation in which he surges to victory of his own accord.
@Starship Trooper
However politics is now much more about emotion and belonging. These days the successful political movements and leaders are those who pick clear sides on big issues, rally their base and fight tooth and nail for the cause. They don't give an inch to their opponents. Trump gets it, the Brexit camp got it, Corbyn in 2017 got it (to an extent).
Biden won because there was enough of an anti trump sentiment. However he never had a 'base' FOR him, which is why his ratings in office are plummeting.
It's why I think AOC is very underestimated by Republicans. In many ways she's the lefts Trump equivalent - says what she thinks, doesn't compromise, powerful orator and loves attacking her own side.
As for Starmer, it's possible that the public turn against Johnson and the Tories after 12 years in govt and Starmer wins almost by default. But I certainly can't see any situation in which he surges to victory of his own accord.
@Starship Trooper
I think this was true a couple of years ago, but there are an increasing number of counter-examples, from Joe Biden to Jacinda Ardern to Pedro Sánchez to Olaf Scholz. The world seems to be moving on from the era of Pasokification and there being no real market for mainstream social democrats.
Original post by DSilva
Do you think Johnson is closer to the Starmer end of politics, or the Trump one?
Starmer definitely.
Original post by Saracen's Fez
I think this was true a couple of years ago, but there are an increasing number of counter-examples, from Joe Biden to Jacinda Ardern to Pedro Sánchez to Olaf Scholz. The world seems to be moving on from the era of Pasokification and there being no real market for mainstream social democrats.
I don't think your counter examples are great.
Biden and Sanchez are set to lose next election and are hardly thriving.
Arden (and the Danish pm) have agreed to restricting immigration. (These are the only places I think you are right but this is problematic for the left)
Scholz (and various other examples eg Sweden, Norway) have won but at the heads of coalitions which are generally pretty unstable and problematic- see the mess that Sweden's governing social democrats are in.
I don't think we are seeing an end to the centre lefts woes. In fact I suspect they are only beginning.
Original post by Saracen's Fez
I think this was true a couple of years ago, but there are an increasing number of counter-examples, from Joe Biden to Jacinda Ardern to Pedro Sánchez to Olaf Scholz. The world seems to be moving on from the era of Pasokification and there being no real market for mainstream social democrats.
There has been a modest recovery for some social democrat parties, but they seem rather fragile and more based on an opposition to populism rather than a positive case for social democracy.
Biden did win by building an anti Trump coalition ranging from diehard socialists to moderate Republicans. But the problem we see now is that now he's in office that coalition has dissapated, with little to bind it together, and his ratings are increasingly poor. He doesn't have a solid base to fall back on, in the same way Trump did and still does.
Having said that we are not like America (yet) , and much as some on the right may wish it so we don't have the massive ideological divides on issues like guns, abortion, healthcare that they do.
It's possible that politics may go through a period of calm following the recent rise of populism, which may play into the hands of someone like Starmer. He may win by default almost if people eventually decide its time for change and the Tories continue to self destruct. But I wouldn't bank on it.
Starmer, whatever one thinks of his politics, just doesn't inspire. He's incredibly boring, and thinks far too much like a lawyer rather than a politician. You win debates today in poltics based on appealing to emotion and feeling rather than on technicalities and coherence. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.
I'm no fan of Blair, as you may know, but by all accounts he seemed to make absolute mince meat of the Tories on a daily basis in the 90s. I haven't really seen Starmer do that at all. He doesn't seem to have it in him.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by Starship Trooper
I don't think your counter examples are great.
Biden and Sanchez are set to lose next election and are hardly thriving.
Arden (and the Danish pm) have agreed to restricting immigration. (These are the only places I think you are right but this is problematic for the left)
Scholz (and various other examples eg Sweden, Norway) have won but at the heads of coalitions which are generally pretty unstable and problematic- see the mess that Sweden's governing social democrats are in.
I don't think we are seeing an end to the centre lefts woes. In fact I suspect they are only beginning.
Biden and Sanchez are set to lose next election and are hardly thriving.
Arden (and the Danish pm) have agreed to restricting immigration. (These are the only places I think you are right but this is problematic for the left)
Scholz (and various other examples eg Sweden, Norway) have won but at the heads of coalitions which are generally pretty unstable and problematic- see the mess that Sweden's governing social democrats are in.
I don't think we are seeing an end to the centre lefts woes. In fact I suspect they are only beginning.
Arden is an interesting one. I guess in a way oppsoition to immigration is more ingrained in the culture there and in Australia where they are very much their own islands cut off from elsewhere.
Having said that she's very charismatic, and also seen as very competent. She has a bit of an 'x factor' about her which is rare for polticians on the left. She goes very hard on issues such as foreign ownership of property which is clever as it appeals to both the cultural right and economic left. She's a very good politician. Similar to Blair in many ways (not that surprising given she used to work for him).
I think America is going to sharply veer away from the rest of the west in terms of politics and culture tbh, whoever is President. Not impossible that we see a gradual decline of populism in much of Europe and the Anglosphere while it dramatically speeds up in USA.
(edited 2 years ago)
Original post by Starship Trooper
@DSilva team Starmer just keep on winning. Anyone who disagrees is a trot who needs to be expelled from the party.
Forgot to compare that to the total number of votes:
2015 - Miliband - 8768 (19.3%)
2017 - Corbyn - 14,079 (29.3%)
2019 - Corbyn - 10,834 (23.5%)
2021 - Starmer - 6,711 (30.1%)
Bexley and Sidcup is a Conservative stronghold and has been so for nearly 40 years. Nobody was expecting Labour to win. Labour didn't even come close to winning in 1997, which was their strongest year in England in recent history.
Original post by SHallowvale
Forgot to compare that to the total number of votes:
2015 - Miliband - 8768 (19.3%)
2017 - Corbyn - 14,079 (29.3%)
2019 - Corbyn - 10,834 (23.5%)
2021 - Starmer - 6,711 (30.1%)
Bexley and Sidcup is a Conservative stronghold and has been so for nearly 40 years. Nobody was expecting Labour to win. Labour didn't even come close to winning in 1997, which was their strongest year in England in recent history.
2015 - Miliband - 8768 (19.3%)
2017 - Corbyn - 14,079 (29.3%)
2019 - Corbyn - 10,834 (23.5%)
2021 - Starmer - 6,711 (30.1%)
Bexley and Sidcup is a Conservative stronghold and has been so for nearly 40 years. Nobody was expecting Labour to win. Labour didn't even come close to winning in 1997, which was their strongest year in England in recent history.
A fair observation
I still think this is a poor showing for labour in a by election against a mediocre government.
Original post by DSilva
Arden is an interesting one. I guess in a way oppsoition to immigration is more ingrained in the culture there and in Australia where they are very much their own islands cut off from elsewhere.
Having said that she's very charismatic, and also seen as very competent. She has a bit of an 'x factor' about her which is rare for polticians on the left. She goes very hard on issues such as foreign ownership of property which is clever as it appeals to both the cultural right and economic left. She's a very good politician. Similar to Blair in many ways (not that surprising given she used to work for him).
I think America is going to sharply veer away from the rest of the west in terms of politics and culture tbh, whoever is President. Not impossible that we see a gradual decline of populism in much of Europe and the Anglosphere while it dramatically speeds up in USA.
Having said that she's very charismatic, and also seen as very competent. She has a bit of an 'x factor' about her which is rare for polticians on the left. She goes very hard on issues such as foreign ownership of property which is clever as it appeals to both the cultural right and economic left. She's a very good politician. Similar to Blair in many ways (not that surprising given she used to work for him).
I think America is going to sharply veer away from the rest of the west in terms of politics and culture tbh, whoever is President. Not impossible that we see a gradual decline of populism in much of Europe and the Anglosphere while it dramatically speeds up in USA.
Agreed
Possibly, but I think that this could be because formerly populist parties start getting into government! Eg Sweden democrats, The league etc.
Original post by Starship Trooper
Agreed
Possibly, but I think that this could be because formerly populist parties start getting into government! Eg Sweden democrats, The league etc.
Possibly, but I think that this could be because formerly populist parties start getting into government! Eg Sweden democrats, The league etc.
The other thing about Arden is she has shown that with the right leader things can change very fast. When she took over NZ Labour were polling really poorly. Within a few months she was Prime Minister and now has an absolutely thumping majority.
It's why I don't buy the whole 'it would take any UK labour leader years to get the party into office', excuse for Starmer.
He faces an objectively weak government but he seems unable to really land a blow.
Original post by Starship Trooper
A fair observation
I still think this is a poor showing for labour in a by election against a mediocre government.
I still think this is a poor showing for labour in a by election against a mediocre government.
Did the turnout not once cross your mind when you shared that?
John Major led a mediocre government, yet in 1997 Labour only managed to get 35.1% of the vote in Bexley and Sidcup. Does this mean Labour had a 'poor showing'? Evidently not, since the overall election gave Labour it's largest ever majority in the HoC.
Original post by DSilva
The other thing about Arden is she has shown that with the right leader things can change very fast. When she took over NZ Labour were polling really poorly. Within a few months she was Prime Minister and now has an absolutely thumping majority.
It's why I don't buy the whole 'it would take any UK labour leader years to get the party into office', excuse for Starmer.
He faces an objectively weak government but he seems unable to really land a blow.
It's why I don't buy the whole 'it would take any UK labour leader years to get the party into office', excuse for Starmer.
He faces an objectively weak government but he seems unable to really land a blow.
Yes.
Original post by SHallowvale
Did the turnout not once cross your mind when you shared that?
John Major led a mediocre government, yet in 1997 Labour only managed to get 35.1% of the vote in Bexley and Sidcup. Does this mean Labour had a 'poor showing'? Evidently not, since the overall election gave Labour it's largest ever majority in the HoC.
John Major led a mediocre government, yet in 1997 Labour only managed to get 35.1% of the vote in Bexley and Sidcup. Does this mean Labour had a 'poor showing'? Evidently not, since the overall election gave Labour it's largest ever majority in the HoC.
I dont think it's a good enough excuse for labour.
Do you think starmer is on track for a 1997 style landslide?
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