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(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
Anyone asking what budget you have is someone whose advice on IT you shouldn't take.
Lolwut? Knowing how much someone wants to spend is directly relevant to finding them a suitable product. You literally said it yourself, what you spend should depend on your needs. That means your budget has to actually accommodate your needs in the first place.

Imagine someone comes along saying "I want a top of the line gaming PC" so you part out a £2000 build for them. Then they say "oh but my budget is only £250". You've wasted your time, and that would be totally avoided if you'd just asked about the budget first.
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(Original post by Acsel)
Lolwut? Knowing how much someone wants to spend is directly relevant to finding them a suitable product. You literally said it yourself, what you spend should depend on your needs. That means your budget has to actually accommodate your needs in the first place.

Imagine someone comes along saying "I want a top of the line gaming PC" so you part out a £2000 build for them. Then they say "oh but my budget is only £250". You've wasted your time, and that would be totally avoided if you'd just asked about the budget first.

Dear lord, has it really reached a point where asking what someone's budget is totally invalidates their advice? It's utter nonsense on so many levels
Yes I literally said "What you spend should depend on your needs". Because that is the optimum way to buy laptops.
Needs as in what applications will be run and what size is most suitable for the individual user. And from there, get the cheapest laptop that will be a great tool for those needs.

Someone saying that they want a top of the line gaming PC has not identified any actual computing needs.
Someone naming the games they want to play and the screen resolutions they want to play them at has identified needs. And from there it's possible to come up with a PC that will be great for their needs for the minimum price.

If it turns out that someone's computing needs requires them to spend £1000 in order to get a great solution, and they are only comfortable spending £500, then it would be a case of advising them accordingly. Something along the lines of "Sorry, what you want can't be done at that price."

Budgets for buying laptops is as daft as having a budget for plastering a room.
You don't - if you have any sense - say what budget you have for plastering a room and then from there spend that budget or just below it on the best plastering you can. What you do instead is identify the type of house it is and the area to be plastered and from that you get a great plastering job done for the least amount of money.

It's the same when buying a gas boiler. You don't say what the budget is and then go out and buy a boiler at or just below the budget. You identify what the boiler will be used for and then buy the cheapest boiler that will be great for those needs.
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(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
You don't say what the budget is and then go out and buy a boiler at or just below the budget.
You seem to be under the impression that "asking for a budget" is the same as "telling someone to spend their entire budget". I don't know how you've come to that conclusion, but if you want to share I can tell you where you've gone wrong.

If someone tells you they've got a £1000 you can go back and say great, here are your options. You can spend £200 on a used laptop, £500 on a mid range laptop, £1000 on an ultrabook, here are the benefits and drawbacks of each. You can let them make an informed decision with options that are relevant to them.

This is much better than giving them options and blindly hoping their budget can accommodate. Or worse, blindly making assumptions about what they want and recommending something when you have nothing to go on.
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(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
One route to getting a highly affordable laptop that would be great for typical student needs is to get a laptop that has an unattractive specification that few other people would want. And then to spend modest amounts bringing it up to a specification that's perfect for your needs.
This is certainly one option. But it comes with a huge caveat. The typical student isn't tech savvy.

The typical student isn't able to tell what an "unattractive specification" actually looks like. They're also not going to know what they can and cannot upgrade, or even what "perfect for their needs" looks like.

Now of course, the obvious answer is to put your faith in someone else and hope they know what they're talking about. But if I knew nothing about tech and someone told me "go get this really cheap laptop with unattractive specs, there's loads available because few people want them" that sets off huge red flags. "If there's loads of these laptops available because nobody wants them, why should I buy it" quickly becomes "this person doesn't sound the slightest bit credible".
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The typical student is far more tech savy than my grandmother. It's a facet of 21st century life that we are surrounded by technology.

On ebay and facebook marketplace it's common to see the same make and model of laptop for sale with different options. For example one with 16GB RAM and one with 8 GB RAM. It's common for the 16GB RAM item to sell for a price premium over the 8 GB RAM item. A premium that's larger than the cost of an 8 GB RAM stick. In the context of a thread about the best affordable laptops it makes no economic sense to buy a 16 GB RAM item when it has attracted such a high price premium.

For getting the best affordable laptop it all depends what you can get for what price. Or what you can get for free.

There's a tendency amongst buyers to have the mindset that whatever laptop they buy, that's what they will have to live with. This is nonsense. The laptop that anyone acquire's can just be the starting point. RAM, SSD, battery are all easily replaceable. Therefore the canniest buyers keep an open mind when it comes to items for sale or being given away that come with modest amounts of RAM, no SSD or a small SSD, a questionable battery.

One way to determine how good someone's advice on laptops is, is to look at the laptops that they have gotten themselves. And what price they paid for them.

So that I for example could show non tech savvy people my HP 8440p laptop that I bought from ebay several years ago for £80, to which I added an SSD that I got for free and a couple of years ago a replacement battery for about £20. They could see how lightning fast this laptop is for my needs.
Or I could show them the Lenovo L450 laptop that I got for my girlfriend for free, for which I paid £10 for a replacement screen lead to permanently fix a fault.
Or I could show them the Dell Latitude E7470 that I bought for a friend for £170 in March 2020.

And then on top of that, you can look at the background of someone giving you advice. Highly experienced hands-on IT Professionals tend to give great advice on buying affordable laptops.

mypwnsupport could show someone his or her Dell 5490 for a huge amount of credibility when it comes to laptop buying advice. Anyone getting the same or very similar laptop for the same sort of price would have gotten themselves a fantastic deal.

It's not not a blind leap of faith to put your trust in the advice of people with a track record.
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(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
The typical student is far more tech savy than my grandmother.
The typical car is faster than my bicycle. Did you have a point?

Posting photos to Instagram and knowing some keyboard shortcuts in Word might be considered tech savvy to some. It doesn't mean you can tell the difference between an i5 1135G7 and a Ryzen 5 5500U.

Or to put it another way, the entire reason we have a laptop recommendation forum is because people don't know, or don't understand.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
One way to determine how good someone's advice on laptops is, is to look at the laptops that they have gotten themselves. And what price they paid for them.
This is silly.

I own an expensive laptop. If I gave the exact same advice as you, my advice doesn't become invalidated just because of what I own. Not that someone needing recommendations even has the context to understand whether someone else's decision was a good one to begin with.

If you're judging the quality of advice based solely on what someone else chose to buy, you're doing it wrong.


(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
It's not not a blind leap of faith to put your trust in the advice of people with a track record.
Never said it was. I'm saying that people who need advice aren't able to determine what a proven track record actually looks like.

Some people think they know what they're talking about. Your username is a misspelling of Dunning-Kruger right, so I assume you're familiar with this concept. The problem is, people who are looking for advice don't have the context to know the difference between "people who know" and "people who think they know". Whoever shouts loudest and sounds the most convincing wins, regardless of whether they are actually right.

It is entirely a leap of faith since "people with a track record" is an empty claim that someone looking for advice has no way to verify.
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(Original post by Acsel)
It is entirely a leap of faith since "people with a track record" is an empty claim that someone looking for advice has no way to verify.
This is complete and utter nonsense in the real world.

In the real world when you meet and get to know someone you get to know their working history.
You get to know if they are - for example - highly experienced hands-on IT Professionals or not.

Plus in the real world, you can ask them to show you the laptops they've bought and to give you a demo.

That is a huge amount of verification.

When it comes to the online forums, it all depends. Some forums have a culture of encouraging their members to meet in real life. Some don't.

Where real life meetings are not possible, I know that I can tell who knows what they are talking about when it comes to practical Information Technology and who doesn't. Simply from what they say and the way that they say it.

I do have sympathy for people that don't know enough about IT to know who to trust in the Online World. Especially with there being so much poor to mediocre advice on IT that comes up when you do Google searches.
For those people, they can always ask me "Whose advice should I take?" or "Who can I trust when it comes to IT advice?"
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Oh isn't this fun, we have our own thread to play in now!!

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
This is complete and utter nonsense in the real world.

When it comes to the online forums, it all depends.
Remind me again, is TSR the real world or an online forum?

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
In the real world when you meet and get to know someone you get to know their working history.
Imagine being so bad at making recommendations that you need to meet the person and tell them your working history to justify it.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
Some forums have a culture of encouraging their members to meet in real life. Some don't.
As a student forum, I wonder which side of the fence TSR sits on...

If your recommendation only makes sense when a complete stranger comes to meet you in real life to check out your laptop, it's a pretty concerning recommendation.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
Where real life meetings are not possible, I know that I can tell who knows what they are talking about when it comes to practical Information Technology and who doesn't. Simply from what they say and the way that they say it.
Congrats on the catch 22 you've put yourself in.

If you're approaching this from the angle of "I know what I'm talking about and can therefore tell who else knows what they're talking about" then you've entirely missed the point. People asking for recommendations typically don't know the difference, because if they did they'd use that knowledge to buy something instead of asking for recommendations. If it helps your ego, just imagine the people asking for recommendations aren't as smart as you.

On the other hand, if you approach this from the angle of "Despite not knowing what I'm talking about, I can differentiate between good and bad advice" then thanks for admitting you don't know what you're talking about.

So which one are you? Informed user that doesn't represent typical users, or typical user that doesn't know what they're talking about?

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
Especially with there being so much poor to mediocre advice on IT that comes up when you do Google searches.
Imagine thinking so highly of yourself that you think everyone else, including the most popular and well respected sources on the Internet are wrong, but you're right.

Has it ever, even for one second, crossed your mind that you might not actually be correct? Have you ever stopped to consider that despite having an opinion, which may be totally valid, that other people can have valid opinions as well? Or do you just live your life in an echo chamber, praising those who agree with you for their intelligence and vehemently disregarding anyone that dares to disagree with you?

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
For those people, they can always ask me "Whose advice should I take?" or "Who can I trust when it comes to IT advice?"
If they're unsure of who to trust, why should they trust you over anyone else?
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(Original post by Acsel)
Imagine thinking so highly of yourself that you think everyone else, including the most popular and well respected sources on the Internet are wrong, but you're right.

Has it ever, even for one second, crossed your mind that you might not actually be correct? Have you ever stopped to consider that despite having an opinion, which may be totally valid, that other people can have valid opinions as well? Or do you just live your life in an echo chamber, praising those who agree with you for their intelligence and vehemently disregarding anyone that dares to disagree with you?


If they're unsure of who to trust, why should they trust you over anyone else?
This is the key here.

Do you think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to practical real world IT issues?

For example what sort of affordable laptop to buy for someone that will be using it for email, word processing, simple spreadsheets, web based applications which includes watching videos, video conferencing.

Judging me from what I've said on the laptop section of this forum over the last 2 and half years or so. And how I've said it.

Your answer will be interesting. It will be interesting to see if you know enough about practical real world IT to be able to tell a highly experienced hands-on IT Professional from a bluffer - just from what they say and the way that they say it.
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(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
Do you think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to practical real world IT issues?
"Practical real world IT issues" is a very arbitrary and broad statement. Please give me a tangible example, rather than trying to make me guess what you're referring to.

I can think of instances where I agree with your recommendations. I can think of instance where you've given a perfectly valid recommendation but tried to start arguments when someone else gives an equally valid recommendation. And I can think of instances where you've given absolutely nonsense recommendations, and the OP of the thread has told you so.

And no, I'm not trawling through your post history to find specific examples to argue about. As you'll see below I think a discussion on whether either of us is qualified in the others eyes is a total waste of time.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
And how I've said it.
This, frankly, is what myself and a lot of people take issue with and what has contributed to the toxic environment tech has become. It's precisely the reason so many people have opted to leave.

Typically, when you give a recommendation it's from a "holier than thou" standpoint. It's as though you're the only one that knows what they're talking about, and nobody else could possibly be as qualified as you. I've heard this complaint from multiple people, and it's often what leads to arguments.

Take the thread this started in for example. I asked OP to fill in the laptop recommendation form so we can better understand their requirements, which is pretty standard practice. You didn't quote me directly, but posted a long comment about how you only need limited info, and anyone asking about budget shouldn't be trusted. It's clear this was aimed at me, adds nothing of value and is intended to start an argument. You later go on to say some other user clearly knows what they're talking about, which implies everyone else is talking rubbish.

This is incredibly common, and it seems like you're always trying to justify your advice by attacking the other advice givers.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
Your answer will be interesting. It will be interesting to see if you know enough about practical real world IT to be able to tell a highly experienced hands-on IT Professional from a bluffer - just from what they say and the way that they say it.
This is precisely the sort of thing I talk about above. Your entire argument assumes that you know about "practical real world IT" and that anyone disagreeing with you must not know what they're talking about. You've completely closed yourself off to accepting other opinions. "It's my way, or the highway" for lack of a better analogy.

Frankly, I don't get why you are trying to justify your knowledge to me. It is of no impact to me and I really don't care in the slightest. Your advice is exactly the same, regardless of whether I think you're qualified to give that advice or not. You have nothing to prove to me.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
This is the key here.
If you think this is the key, then you've entirely missed the point. This has never been about being qualified to give advice. You'll note that I've never once tried to cite my background as justification for why someone should listen to me, despite you (and sometimes others) trying to insinuate that I don't know what I'm talking about.

I actually think it's kind of sad what has happened to tech, I used to love the forum and took a lot of pride in giving good advice, creating content like the laptop guide and so on. My goal was always to ensure the information given was accurate and complete, so people could make the most informed decision. And looking at it objectively, I was pretty damn good at it. Sometimes that meant calling out biased advice, which could lead to arguments. I hold my hands up to that, sometimes I'm responsible for instigating arguments too. But I'm more interested in the information in this forum being objectively accurate than in keeping people happy. Hey, nobody is perfect and I understand my shortcomings.

You could have carved out a niche here as the go to person for budget laptops, just like how Gofre was the go to person on anything regarding mobiles and audiophile. Whenever someone says "I only have £200, I need a budget device" we'd have said "oh, that's a pretty low budget so you'll have to buy used, here are some of the drawbacks that come with buying used, tagging Dunnig Kruger to see what he'd recommend". But that hasn't happen, not because you're unqualified to give advice, but because you lost the respect of so many people based on the way you give advice. And now look at the state of tech, where the most interaction is happening in an argumentative thread. It's such a waste.
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You have not answered the question I asked in my previous post. Which was:

"Do you think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to practical real world IT issues?"

I did give you a tangible example. Which was:
"For example what sort of affordable laptop to buy for someone that will be using it for email, word processing, simple spreadsheets, web based applications which includes watching videos, video conferencing."

Instead of answering my question, you've selectively quoted me and gone off on a rant.

I will ask another 2 questions.
When it comes to practical real world IT issues, who do you think has more expertise in this area, you Acsel, or me Dunnig Kruger?
And, how big do you think the difference in expertise between us is?

I'll give 2 examples of practical real world IT issues.
You have a user that works on email, word processing, simple spreadsheets, web based applications on their PC. And they raise a ticket where they say that the PC is slow. And the issue is to resolve the slowness for the least amount of money.

You have a user that is looking to buy a laptop. They will be using it for email, word processing, simple spreadsheets, web based applications which includes watching videos, video conferencing. A 14" laptop would be suitable for their screen size vs portability needs. They have a boyfriend who is a mechanical engineering graduate who is a keen classic car restoration hobbyist. What's the sweet spot when it comes to what laptop they should get?
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(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
You have not answered the question I asked in my previous post.
I mean you selectively ignored the entirety of my post before that to pose your question so "pot kettle black" and all that

Edit for lulz, every question you've yet to answer:
  • The typical car is faster than my bicycle. Did you have a point?
  • Remind me again, is TSR the real world or an online forum?
  • So which one are you? Informed user that doesn't represent typical users, or typical user that doesn't know what they're talking about?
  • Has it ever, even for one second, crossed your mind that you might not actually be correct?
  • Have you ever stopped to consider that despite having an opinion, which may be totally valid, that other people can have valid opinions as well?
  • Or do you just live your life in an echo chamber, praising those who agree with you for their intelligence and vehemently disregarding anyone that dares to disagree with you?
  • If they're unsure of who to trust, why should they trust you over anyone else?

In fact I'd like to add another question to that list:
  • What exactly is it you are hoping to get out of this discussion?

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
For example what sort of affordable laptop to buy for someone that will be using it for email, word processing, simple spreadsheets, web based applications which includes watching videos, video conferencing
I'd answer that with exactly the same question I asked in the original thread. What does affordable mean? I'm not going to make assumptions about what affordable actually means to different people.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
gone off on a rant.
ITT: Giving constructive criticism is considered "going off on a rant". You don't have to like it, but I'm afraid my rant is quite accurate. Although I suppose that's easy to see, looking in from an outsider's perspective. I appreciate that people often don't like being told they're behaviour is toxic to those around them.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
When it comes to practical real world IT issues, who do you think has more expertise in this area, you Acsel, or me Dunnig Kruger?
I still don't understand why you want to compare us. Is this some ego thing where you just need to feel superior or something? Are you looking for me to validate your "expertise"?

I'm yet to hear a reason or why this comparison matters, so until then I'm not even going to entertain the idea of comparing us.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
And, how big do you think the difference in expertise between us is?
Same as above. Why does the difference in our expertise even matter? Lol I don't even know how you'd quantify this in the first place.

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
You have a user that works on email, word processing, simple spreadsheets, web based applications on their PC. And they raise a ticket where they say that the PC is slow. And the issue is to resolve the slowness for the least amount of money.
Lol why are you are trying to test me on random IT support problems now? Is this that thing where you try to outsource your job to someone on the Internet? Would you like me to give you a Cyber Security question back and we could turn this into a game show?

As far as actually answering this goes, it's impossible to say for certain as there isn't enough information. You haven't mentioned what spec the PC is, so who knows if the slowness is normal for that PC. Not knowing the spec also means we don't know what, if anything, can or should be upgraded. We don't know what state the PC is in, whether it's up to date or whether there's some background processes causing problems. We don't even know if the PC is objectively slow, or if the user just perceives it as slow. If it's always slow, or only slow during certain tasks. Plus countless other troubleshooting steps you'd undertake.

1/10 would not answer again

(Original post by Dunnig Kruger)
You have a user that is looking to buy a laptop. They will be using it for email, word processing, simple spreadsheets, web based applications which includes watching videos, video conferencing. A 14" laptop would be suitable for their screen size vs portability needs. They have a boyfriend who is a mechanical engineering graduate who is a keen classic car restoration hobbyist. What's the sweet spot when it comes to what laptop they should get?
This has similar issues to the example you gave at the top. I don't know the budget, so I can't give a recommendation. I could give multiple recommendations at different budgets and list the benefits and drawbacks to each. They could then decide what the sweet spot is themselves, as that's not remotely my decision to make.

But as I mentioned before I think this is a waste of time, because I'm not so insecure that I need to engage in a **** measuring contest.

That said, I almost want to ask what you'd recommend for me. According to you, the only things you need to know to make a recommendation are use case, and opinions on screen size. So let's say the use case is hacking, and the screen size I'm not fussed about. Not that I expect you to actually answer with a recommendation though, given your background is IT support and all that
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(Original post by dunnig kruger)
x
I'm going to chime in with what will likely be my last post on TSR before the request for my account to be cleared (hopefully) goes into effect next week, and that is to echo everything Acsel has said.

DK, I'm going to preface this by saying I do not doubt for a second your strong technical knowledge in this area. I don't know and frankly don't care what your actual credentials are, but you are clearly knowledgeable on the topic.

That does not, however, stop your advice from being poor a significant percentage of the time. Knowledge means nothing if you're not able to apply it objectively and pragmatically, both of which your advice leaves little room for when your obsession with pushing used hardware borders on evangelical. You are seemingly incapable of acknowledging any rationale people may have for not wanting to go down this path, and if you run into this roadblock rather than continuing to assist with finding a suitable option that meets their preferences and priorities, you simply drop out the thread. It genuinely feels like helping people is of minimal importance to you compared to your desire to spread to gospel of half-decade old Thinkpads.

This is compounded by your combative stance towards seemingly anyone recommending anything to the contrary. It doesn't matter if the advice comes from somebody else knowledgeable that addresses the user's needs to a tee, if that advice is not for a used business laptop then it seemingly cannot go unchallenged, either directly or with underhanded remarks questioning the credibility of anyone you deem lower than yourself. I have been here for a literal decade, and I am not exaggerating when I say your inability to let valid advice from other users stand is #3 in the list of most frequent reasons I've seen threads be derailed across Tech, coming only behind Mac vs PC and iOS vs Android fights breaking out.

It doesn't matter if you're an IT professional, cybersecurity graduate or anything else in this context. We're recommending laptops to sixth formers here, there's a ceiling on how much credibility your profession or credentials can lend you. And of all the "power users" who have come through this subforum over the years I've been here, from the feedback you've gotten from thread posters, I would be willing to bet money your posts have the lowest conversion rate from recommendations to purchases of any of us.

And Acsel is right, it really does lend the forum a toxic atmosphere when the bulk of replies in a forum are coming from a single user giving unpopular advice and snapping at half the people that contradict him. I think this falls more into the lap of the CT (and to a lesser degree, the mods) who have let the subforum stagnate into the absolute ghost town it is now, but I know for a fact that your input to the forum has dissuaded at least two prominent users stepping back from giving advice or posting in the subforum altogether. To be completely frank, one of the main things stopping me from quitting the site a year earlier than I am now is some misplaced sense of responsibility to the place, and not wanting to leave it in a position where you are the most active and senior poster here.

It gives me no pleasure to say all this. I would much rather leave the subforum as it once was, a positively bustling corner of the site in comparison to the shell it's been reduced to now, where your advice and opinions are one among many. Because I agree with Acsel, you could have been a great addition to the site with your niche, if you knew when to stop or had an ounce of tact. But that is, unfortunately, not the reality.

And I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears, but after coming to blows with every knowledgeable member of this forum on the exact same topic and still maintaining you're the only one who knows what they're talking about, maybe it's time to consider whether we all had a point.

---

Anyway, that rambling complaint can hereby mark the end to my time on TSR. I had hoped I wouldn't have to leave it at what I expect is an all-time low in terms of posting and engagement, but here we are. I'm going to leave a quick tag for RoyalSheepy (who can bring this to the attention of the CT if they think it warrants discussion, because I don't know who on the CT engages with users anymore) with a little plea to not let Tech sink further than it already has. I'm sure in terms of company priorities it's so far down the list you'd need a pair of binoculars to find it, but as it stands right now, a glorified google-alternative for tech support propped up on the back of less than half a dozen users, it barely justifies its existence. I'm sure you guys can pull my email address from the site's back-end if you want to discuss anything I've raised further (or ask Warren or Chris M to reach out via facebook), but if not, I wish the best to all of you :yy:
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I'd like to take this opportunity to reiterate what Gofre has said. I've mentioned it before as well, but this is about as plainly as I can put it:

This is not, and has never been, about your (or anyone else's for that matters) expertise. It's about your communication and general people skills.

Having knowledge, or even just an opinion, on a matter, and being able to convey it are two very different things.



On a more personal note:
I came back to TSR in a professional capacity to offer careers advice. I didn't intend to get involved with tech for many reasons, one of them being I fully expected something like this to happen. Another, which I mentioned elsewhere, was that I hadn't kept up with recent releases and wouldn't be able to make the same kinds of informed recommendations I used to. So I focused on asking questions, aiming to get a better understanding and allow for better recommendations from others.

Despite not making any real recommendations, just asking questions has been met with confrontational and argumentative replies. This entire thread started because you tried to argue against asking people for more information. I think that says it all.

The rest of my short time back on TSR has been well received. But I can see nothing in tech has changed since the last time I opted to leave. And is so often the way, one bad experience ruins all the other good experiences. Maybe I'll stick around and see if anything comes of this, although I'm not so egotistic to think anyone actually cares whether I stay or leave. Multiple power users opting to leave the site hasn't prompted a response before, so I doubt it'll matter now. It's just such as shame that these are circumstances, and that tech is going to be left in this state.
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(Original post by Acsel)

I'm yet to hear a reason or why this comparison matters, so until then I'm not even going to entertain the idea of comparing us.
Imagine a situation where there are 2 people posting on a forum about football. With the threads including topics such as how to win football leagues.

1 of them is a recently graduated PE Teacher.
The other is Pep Guardiola.

Imagine the PE Teacher saying that he is yet to hear a reason why it matters that there is a difference in the football experience that each of them has.
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