Medical apprenticeships: would you trust it?

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Ram Ranch
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#1
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Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
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Nitebot
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#2
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#2
I don't know if this is the best way forward for medicine but we seem to have created an elitist system for many of our top professions and I'm not sure that's a good thing. I remember when I was bored once a few years back, I looked at the entrance requirements for St Barts. It was straights A/A*s at GCSE and A level. No retakes accepted. Few alternative qualifications were allowed and those that were, it was top grades. I thought to myself, well you may be getting very academically capable people but by narrowing your pool so much are you really getting the people with the right empathic personalities? We all know of, or have been told about, very rude, indifferent acting doctors who upset and demoralise their patients and families. So why not give it a shot?
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kylalee.x
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
I mean yeah sure it’d be so competitive but they are still learning the same skills as everyone else so why not
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hotpud
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
Sounds reasonable. The current model sees the most academically gifted / privileged students chosen to become doctors. The flip side is that many have absolutely no interpersonal skills and end up treating patients like lumps of meat. The medical profession is middle class and paternalistic. Very bright people doing amazing things, but as a body could they be more effective if influenced with a bit of diversity of thought? Absolutely!
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nexttime
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
There's a more extensive discussion here, including a number of doctors contributing.

I think the long and short of it is that people want a lot more details of how this is going to be as rigorous as the normal course. How are they going to be working, presumably doing very menial tasks which is the only thing they will be qualified for, yet learn the extensive knowledge and academic skills in interpreting scientific papers etc that you'd need as a senior doctor. The announcement has just no details at all.

I think most people don't buy that its about equality/access at all. It hasn't said any way in which it would actually help that. Its just a way of using money that the government has allocated for apprenticeships, and using it to train doctors instead. Would they be able to work abroad? Would they be limited to certain specialties e.g. GP? Because in which case it seems more like a 'trap' than an access scheme!

And of course there's quite a bit of anger at the suggestion that some people will go to med school and graduate with a minimum of ~£70kish debt, possibly a lot more and more than any other degree of course, whereas others doing almost the same thing will not only avoid the debt, but actually get paid.
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Chief Wiggum
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#6
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If it is implemented well, then I think it could potentially work OK. I haven't looked into it in detail, though.
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Democracy
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#7
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#7
It's deprofessionalisation dressed up in trendy widening access language. Meanwhile the people who would most benefit from gaining access to higher education will be continue to be shut out and gain a second rate qualification.

What an embarrassment.
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Okorange
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#8
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Really depends on how it is implemented, but it is a dumbing down of healthcare in general. I guess somebody has to do the charting.
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161BMW
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#9
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#9
It been the case with these new style degree apprenticeships or school leaver apprenticeships
A lot of the time you can train people up on the job or with college on the side and get them to a decent job
It happens in some programs for actuaries, law, engineers and now medicine.

You won’t be using everything you learn in medical school you need to know what you need to do your job. Could be workable solution but needs elaboration and how they cover everything.

As for people butt hurt about debt this is a new route which wasn’t available then and if was available maybe they would have chosen it.
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Ambitious1999
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#10
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
I think it’s a great idea. Firstly it will make becoming a doctor much easier and more accessible. Second we have a shortage of doctors and as an independent nation with stronger border control we need to be self sufficient in doctors without needing to hire them from abroad.
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The RAR
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#11
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#11
It's a great idea in theory, but practically how will it work out? Like the others said, the details haven't been released. If standards and procedures aren't reduced and it doesn't endanger lives, then I don't see a problem with it.
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Vertigo_descent
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#12
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#12
IMO it comes down to the what is taught and how. There's less room for error in medicine than in most other fields. Transmitting the knowledge does not require the degree format, but the focus does need to be on keeping standards high.
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looloo2134
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#13
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(Original post by hotpud)
Sounds reasonable. The current model sees the most academically gifted / privileged students chosen to become doctors. The flip side is that many have absolutely no interpersonal skills and end up treating patients like lumps of meat. The medical profession is middle class and paternalistic. Very bright people doing amazing things, but as a body could they be more effective if influenced with a bit of diversity of thought? Absolutely!
How is medical school and medical profession not diverse most people who train at British medical school are female of Indian Hindu, Jewish or Nigerian Christian descent.

I agree that there should be more working class white men in their thirties training to be doctors. Hopefully an paid apprenticeship scheme would help them afford to train.
Last edited by looloo2134; 10 months ago
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161BMW
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#14
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(Original post by Ambitious1999)
I think it’s a great idea. Firstly it will make becoming a doctor much easier and more accessible. Second we have a shortage of doctors and as an independent nation with stronger border control we need to be self sufficient in doctors without needing to hire them from abroad.
Surely you mean weak border control ?
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looloo2134
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#15
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
I personally would love Baz the plumber to be able change his career and get the education training become a doctor. It snobby to believe Baz because he plumber is unable to become an excellent doctor.

We need more people from working class backgrounds to become doctors. They have a better understanding of service users need that come from a similar background.
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Leniaaaa
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#16
Report 9 months ago
#16
When will an update be available for this and when is it thought to begin
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