Medical apprenticeships: would you trust it?

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Ram Ranch
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Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
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Nitebot
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I don't know if this is the best way forward for medicine but we seem to have created an elitist system for many of our top professions and I'm not sure that's a good thing. I remember when I was bored once a few years back, I looked at the entrance requirements for St Barts. It was straights A/A*s at GCSE and A level. No retakes accepted. Few alternative qualifications were allowed and those that were, it was top grades. I thought to myself, well you may be getting very academically capable people but by narrowing your pool so much are you really getting the people with the right empathic personalities? We all know of, or have been told about, very rude, indifferent acting doctors who upset and demoralise their patients and families. So why not give it a shot?
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kylalee.x
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
I mean yeah sure it’d be so competitive but they are still learning the same skills as everyone else so why not
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hotpud
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
Sounds reasonable. The current model sees the most academically gifted / privileged students chosen to become doctors. The flip side is that many have absolutely no interpersonal skills and end up treating patients like lumps of meat. The medical profession is middle class and paternalistic. Very bright people doing amazing things, but as a body could they be more effective if influenced with a bit of diversity of thought? Absolutely!
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nexttime
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(Original post by Ram Ranch)
Health Education England (HEE) is in the early stages of creating an apprenticeship programme which would enable candidates to become doctors without undertaking a traditional undergraduate medical degree.

HEE said the programme, which will allow trainee doctors to earn while they train, was aimed at making the profession ‘more accessible’ to those who are kept from undertaking a medical degree due to financial and time constraints.

Are you happy to be treated by Baz the plumber M.D. or is this another cost cutting exercise as we slide towards a 2nd world state?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/wo...hip-programme/
There's a more extensive discussion here, including a number of doctors contributing.

I think the long and short of it is that people want a lot more details of how this is going to be as rigorous as the normal course. How are they going to be working, presumably doing very menial tasks which is the only thing they will be qualified for, yet learn the extensive knowledge and academic skills in interpreting scientific papers etc that you'd need as a senior doctor. The announcement has just no details at all.

I think most people don't buy that its about equality/access at all. It hasn't said any way in which it would actually help that. Its just a way of using money that the government has allocated for apprenticeships, and using it to train doctors instead. Would they be able to work abroad? Would they be limited to certain specialties e.g. GP? Because in which case it seems more like a 'trap' than an access scheme!

And of course there's quite a bit of anger at the suggestion that some people will go to med school and graduate with a minimum of ~£70kish debt, possibly a lot more and more than any other degree of course, whereas others doing almost the same thing will not only avoid the debt, but actually get paid.
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Johnny ~
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(Original post by nexttime)
There's a more extensive discussion here, including a number of doctors contributing.

I think the long and short of it is that people want a lot more details of how this is going to be as rigorous as the normal course. How are they going to be working, presumably doing very menial tasks which is the only thing they will be qualified for, yet learn the extensive knowledge and academic skills in interpreting scientific papers etc that you'd need as a senior doctor. The announcement has just no details at all.

I think most people don't buy that its about equality/access at all. It hasn't said any way in which it would actually help that. Its just a way of using money that the government has allocated for apprenticeships, and using it to train doctors instead. Would they be able to work abroad? Would they be limited to certain specialties e.g. GP? Because in which case it seems more like a 'trap' than an access scheme!

And of course there's quite a bit of anger at the suggestion that some people will go to med school and graduate with a minimum of ~£70kish debt, possibly a lot more and more than any other degree of course, whereas others doing almost the same thing will not only avoid the debt, but actually get paid.
Interesting post - thanks for this. Law firms are developing something similar (solicitor apprenticeships), but, from what I can tell, the reaction has been a lot more muted. Possibly because the firms that offer them are generally not seen as 'elite' and because, no matter where you practice, the work junior lawyers do is extremely rote and process-driven and doesn't require any intelligence whatsoever (meaning that there are no fears of 'dumbing down'). The law degree also doesn't impart any substantive knowledge that solicitor apprentices would be missing out on, unlike a degree in medicine.

I can tell why the doctors would be angry about the debt though - there is still very much a point of studying law at university and applying through the traditional training contract process if you plan on becoming a solicitor, given that only a small number of non-elite and often regional commercial firms offer apprenticeships. The thought of getting into debt only to end up in the same situation as someone who did the apprenticeship seems unfair. Also, the early career earnings offered by law firms do allow for student loans to be paid off fairly quickly (for those who make it).
Last edited by Johnny ~; 4 weeks ago
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Chief Wiggum
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If it is implemented well, then I think it could potentially work OK. I haven't looked into it in detail, though.
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Democracy
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It's deprofessionalisation dressed up in trendy widening access language. Meanwhile the people who would most benefit from gaining access to higher education will be continue to be shut out and gain a second rate qualification.

What an embarrassment.
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