A simple way to understand the Immaculate Conception of Mary

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SlaveofAll
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I'm Catholic, and I can see why non-Catholic observers are quite wary of the Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception of Mary, as they worry that it might detract from the supremacy of Jesus as the sole provider of salvation, although they need not hold that fear.

In the recent years, Christian writers have been observing the striking resemblance between the dogma and the Lutheran doctrine of salvation by grace alone.

To make this even clearer, this means God endowed Mary with so much grace without Mary needing to earn it that it precludes her from committing sin and being susceptible to human frailty, which should be different from Jesus being good all along.
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username5778034
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While Lutheran doctrine is that of salvation by faith in Christ alone1, Luther also did believe2 all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23)

I don't understand how there could be a striking resemblance :hmmmm:

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2 All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law, or merit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_Martin_Luther

1"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide
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shanfara
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The immaculate conception isn't the problem people have with the Catholic Church.
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username5778034
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(Original post by shanfara)
The immaculate conception isn't the problem people have with the Catholic Church.
it is to those who believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of Bible
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NJA
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
I'm Catholic, and I can see why non-Catholic observers are quite wary of the Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception of Mary,...
Why does Mary even need to be without any sin?

She confessed she needed a saviour, only sinners need a saviour!
Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.


Simeon prophesied that Mary, like all, would be convicted of her need to be converted:
Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; :35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.


Jesus indicated that those that hear and do God's word are more blessed than Mary!
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. :28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Paul affirmed that all are sinners (John also - see 1 John 1)
Romans 3: . . . we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: . . . For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Mary, like John was there at Pentecost to be converted, to be washed from sin by receiving the Holy Spirit.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by homecounter)
While Lutheran doctrine is that of salvation by faith in Christ alone1, Luther also did believe2 all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23)

I don't understand how there could be a striking resemblance :hmmmm:

Spoiler:
Show
2 All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law, or merit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology_of_Martin_Luther

1"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide
The passage commonsensically seems to be applicable only to people without complete grace.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by homecounter)
it is to those who believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of Bible
Ecumenical attitudes have been gladly reconsidering the matter.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by NJA)
Why does Mary even need to be without any sin?

She confessed she needed a saviour, only sinners need a saviour!
Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Simeon prophesied that Mary, like all, would be convicted of her need to be converted:
Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; :35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Jesus indicated that those that hear and do God's word are more blessed than Mary!
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.


Paul affirmed that all are sinners (John also - see 1 John 1)
Romans 3: . . . we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: . . . For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Mary, like John was there at Pentecost to be converted, to be washed from sin by receiving the Holy Spirit.
The immaculate conception doesn't even deny it, for God endowed Mary with complete grace at the beginning of her life without the need for her to earn it, which seems to exemplify salvation by grace alone.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by shanfara)
The immaculate conception isn't the problem people have with the Catholic Church.
It's one of the problems to be more accurate.
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username5778034
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
The passage commonsensically seems to be applicable only to people without complete grace.
One of the Lutheran doctrines is Sola Scriptura which points to the infallibility of Bible. Since the Bible doesn't point out regarding the doctrine of immaculate conception, nor does it speak of 'complete grace' and 'partial grace', I fail to see the correlation between Lutheran doctrine and the doctrine of Immaculate Conception of Mary.
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username5778034
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
Ecumenical attitudes have been gladly reconsidering the matter.
I see...
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by homecounter)
One of the Lutheran doctrines is Sola Scriptura which points to the infallibility of Bible. Since the Bible doesn't point out regarding the doctrine of immaculate conception, nor does it speak of 'complete grace' and 'partial grace', I fail to see the correlation between Lutheran doctrine and the doctrine of Immaculate Conception of Mary.
To understand what I mean, the essay "Sola Gratia and Mary's Immaculate Conception" by Edward T Oakes in First Things might help you have a clear view of the correlation.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by homecounter)
I see...
It's very important for restoring Christian unity and strengthening the power of God to transform the world for the better.
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username5778034
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
It's very important for restoring Christian unity and strengthening the power of God to transform the world for the better.
Indeed!
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by homecounter)
Indeed!
Fragmentation and internecine conflicts does threaten to undermine the power and integrity of anything.
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username5778034
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
To understand what I mean, the essay "Sola Gratia and Mary's Immaculate Conception" by Edward T Oakes in First Things might help you have a clear view of the correlation.
Thank you that would be helpful
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by homecounter)
Thank you that would be helpful
There are lots more.
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username5778034
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
Fragmentation and internecine conflicts does threaten to undermine the power and integrity of anything.
which is a very unfortunate consequence
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by homecounter)
which is a very unfortunate consequence
It happens even to the best of institutions. I used to be squeamish about the dogma because what its critics might perceive until I've stumbled across such writings about the dogma, which did help me appreciate it even a little bit.
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Final Fantasy
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The Quran makes it pretty clear. No need to simplify anything.

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.

—Quran, sura 3 (Al Imran), ayah 42.


Mary (Arabic: مريم‎; Marīam), the mother of Isa (عيسى is venerated in Islam. Her parents are mentioned as Imran (عمران) and Hannah (حنا) and her sibling is Harun (هارون). She is one of the most important and righteous women in Islam. She is mentioned in the Quran more than in the New Testament (Bible). She is the only woman mentioned by name in the Quran. Many Muslim women look up to her as an example. According to the Quran, Allah (God) chose Mary above all women of all nations.
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