In what ways were the protestants stricter than the catholics?

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CountBread
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#1
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#1
I read and hear this all the time - ''strict protestant upbringing''.

And yet, as I look at the respective theology and practices, it seems to me Catholicism, traditional Catholicism, is much more demanding than Protestantism of any kind.

That is because Catholicism admits of so many sacraments. Going to the Church and receiving holy communion isn't merely some sign of faith, it's literally God granting you grace, bit by bit, it's a sacrament required for salvation. A Catholic, slowly, after years of going to church and receiving holy communion, becomes saved. It's not, like evangelical protestantism, a one time event where you're saved by grace through faith alone, etc.

There are other examples like praying the rosary or Latin masses (unless your mother tongue is Latin which was pretty rare post-medieval times) which are let's say extra work one has to do if they're traditionally faithful Catholics. I imagine you must be very disciplined to follow all these practices?

So religion-wise, traditional Catholicism seems to me to be more demanding of discipline so why is protestantism and puritanism linked to strictness and discipline but catholicism isn't?
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Mike Marra
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#2
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Busy W.A.S.P work ethic. Helped conquer a quarter of the modern world.
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Wired_1800
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#3
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(Original post by Kovalensky)
I read and hear this all the time - ''strict protestant upbringing''.

And yet, as I look at the respective theology and practices, it seems to me Catholicism, traditional Catholicism, is much more demanding than Protestantism of any kind.

That is because Catholicism admits of so many sacraments. Going to the Church and receiving holy communion isn't merely some sign of faith, it's literally God granting you grace, bit by bit, it's a sacrament required for salvation. A Catholic, slowly, after years of going to church and receiving holy communion, becomes saved. It's not, like evangelical protestantism, a one time event where you're saved by grace through faith alone, etc.

There are other examples like praying the rosary or Latin masses (unless your mother tongue is Latin which was pretty rare post-medieval times) which are let's say extra work one has to do if they're traditionally faithful Catholics. I imagine you must be very disciplined to follow all these practices?

So religion-wise, traditional Catholicism seems to me to be more demanding of discipline so why is protestantism and puritanism linked to strictness and discipline but catholicism isn't?
londonmyst - I look forward to your views.
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CountBread
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#4
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#4
(Original post by Mike Marra)
Busy W.A.S.P work ethic. Helped conquer a quarter of the modern world.
I'm aware of the Weberian protestant thesis but it seems to me to be complete and utter BS that some Northern German Protestant invented to flatter themselves.

Loads of Catholics in those countries helped - German Catholics are among the most prosperous (Bavaria) so were Northern Italians, and Dutch Catholics.

PS I am not religious nor of Catholic upbringing.
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SlaveofAll
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#5
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The Catholic denomination holds a lot of factions, and this is true of the Protestant movement.

Popular opinion has been holding the stereotype of Protestant believers holding to a strict regimen of morality, because many of them have been wanting to prove themselves chosen and saved by God.
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Mike Marra
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#6
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(Original post by Kovalensky)
I'm aware of the Weberian protestant thesis but it seems to me to be complete and utter BS that some Northern German Protestant invented to flatter themselves.

Loads of Catholics in those countries helped - German Catholics are among the most prosperous (Bavaria) so were Northern Italians, and Dutch Catholics.

PS I am not religious nor of Catholic upbringing.
Must be something more in being British as opposed to Protestant I suppose.
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CountBread
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#7
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
The Catholic denomination holds a lot of factions, and this is true of the Protestant movement.

Popular opinion has been holding the stereotype of Protestant believers holding to a strict regimen of morality, because many of them have been wanting to prove themselves chosen and saved by God.
Sensible.

Salvation by Catholics is linked to these sacraments, receiving communion, confession, unction, marriage, baptisms, etc. All ceremonial and not ''productive'' in a wordly manner. Being moral is a huge thing of course (''good'' acts by free will are in fact required for salvation in Catholicism) but being moral doesn't need to be linked to productivity or orderliness.

Protestants, especially of the evangelical kind, are left without these ''signs'' and look for more wordly signs like personal success and industriousness as signs they're chosen and will be salvaged.

Thanks.
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CountBread
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#8
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(Original post by Mike Marra)
Must be something more in being British as opposed to Protestant I suppose.
Even less plausible.

This the Dutch were as productive and innovative as the British and so were the Germans later on (in fact, more) and many others (Scandinavians, etc)
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Mike Marra
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#9
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(Original post by Kovalensky)
Even less plausible.

This the Dutch were as productive and innovative as the British and so were the Germans later on (in fact, more) and many others (Scandinavians, etc)
Horrendous take. Anglo Saxons are the most accomplished tribe of people to ever exist. There is no doubt that England is Hyperborea and the English hold great Vril energy.
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SlaveofAll
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#10
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(Original post by Kovalensky)
Sensible.

Salvation by Catholics is linked to these sacraments, receiving communion, confession, unction, marriage, baptisms, etc. All ceremonial and not ''productive'' in a wordly manner. Being moral is a huge thing of course (''good'' acts by free will are in fact required for salvation in Catholicism) but being moral doesn't need to be linked to productivity or orderliness.

Protestants, especially of the evangelical kind, are left without these ''signs'' and look for more wordly signs like personal success and industriousness as signs they're chosen and will be salvaged.

Thanks.
The Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception should show anyone that works-based salvation has no place within the denomination.
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CountBread
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Mike Marra)
Horrendous take. Anglo Saxons are the most accomplished tribe of people to ever exist. There is no doubt that England is Hyperborea and the English hold great Vril energy.
Dude go do your hw and stop trolling.
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SlaveofAll
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#12
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(Original post by Kovalensky)
Even less plausible.

This the Dutch were as productive and innovative as the British and so were the Germans later on (in fact, more) and many others (Scandinavians, etc)
Despite the long-standing penchant within Catholicism for governmental regulation of the economy?
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CountBread
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#13
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#13
(Original post by SlaveofAll)
The Catholic dogma of the immaculate conception should show anyone that works-based salvation has no place within the denomination.
Not gonna get whether Catholicism is right or wrong theologically. The point is that doing good works is absolutely critical for Catholic salvation (as is for protestant but in a different way - good works after you're saved, not good works as one of the things that get you saved).
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SlaveofAll
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Kovalensky)
Not gonna get whether Catholicism is right or wrong theologically. The point is that doing good works is absolutely critical for Catholic salvation (as is for protestant but in a different way - good works after you're saved, not good works as one of the things that get you saved).
I'm Catholic, and I often hear accusations of Catholicism relying on works for salvation, so I brought up, hoping to dispel some misconception.

Back to the topic, I can see why few Catholic populations (as opposed to the entire Catholic population) worldwide seem to be productive enough to achieve prosperity as it seems to have to do with whatever attitude towards money, commerce, and the freedom of the market the magisterium seems to be giving them.
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CountBread
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#15
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#15
(Original post by SlaveofAll)
Despite the long-standing penchant within Catholicism for governmental regulation of the economy
What were the very puritan and protestant Americans like Hamilton himself in favour of? tariffs in imports, regulation of international trade and central banking, i.e. regulation of money. Protestant Germans were worse of course (the welfare state being a German, not a Spanish invention).

I think perhaps only the Dutch and to a far lesser extent the English were actual free traders (depending on whether it suited them at the time lol).
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SlaveofAll
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#16
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(Original post by Kovalensky)
What were the very puritan and protestant Americans like Hamilton himself in favour of? tariffs in imports, regulation of international trade and central banking, i.e. regulation of money. Protestant Germans were worse of course (the welfare state being a German, not a Spanish invention).

I think perhaps only the Dutch and to a far lesser extent the English were actual free traders (depending on whether it suited them at the time lol).
Alexander Hamilton was a Federalist (who wanted regulation of the economy), while Thomas Jefferson wanted none of it, yet both of them were Protestant.

Thing is that governmental regulation of the economy has been receiving favor within most circles within Catholicism (if Rerum novarum isn't a hint).
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CountBread
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#17
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#17
(Original post by SlaveofAll)
I'm Catholic, and I often hear accusations of Catholicism relying on works for salvation, so I brought up, hoping to dispel some misconception.

Back to the topic, I can see why few Catholic populations (as opposed to the entire Catholic population) worldwide seem to be productive enough to achieve prosperity as it seems to have to do with whatever attitude towards money, commerce, and the freedom of the market the magisterium seems to be giving them.
Those are ''accusations'' protestants make, neither the Jews, nor the Muslims nor indeed the Orthodox Christians would ''accuse'' anyone of relying on works for salvation as they also rely on them and they find it perplexing as to why anyone would even object to such a dogma. It's just for British Catholics or for Catholics in the colonies, this is a big issue since their traditional ... ''opponents'' were the protestants. But globally... really not the issue most people have with Catholicism.

Right now, the official take of the Church on economic matters is kinda centrist (and since Bergoglio became pope, leftist in rhetoric) but Idk what the general idea was historically, I assume a pro-feudal, anti-industrial take.
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CountBread
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#18
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#18
(Original post by SlaveofAll)
Alexander Hamilton was a Federalist (who wanted regulation of the economy), while Thomas Jefferson wanted none of it, yet both of them were Protestant.

Thing is that governmental regulation of the economy has been receiving favor within most circles within Catholicism (if Rerum novarum isn't a hint).
But Hamilton was a pioneer in protectionism and regulation - that would be my point - not a mere insignificant figure. Later German economists like List looked to him to develop mercantilist and protectionist theories which were extremely influential in Germany and elsewhere. Mercantilism or just generally government regulation of the economy (including banking) is as protestant as Martin Luther himself.

Therefore one can't look to the Catholics and go ''lolololol u guys protectionist/regulation lovers we (Protestants) free traders and free marketers"
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SlaveofAll
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Kovalensky)
Those are ''accusations'' protestants make, neither the Jews, nor the Muslims nor indeed the Orthodox Christians would ''accuse'' anyone of relying on works for salvation as they also rely on them and they find it perplexing as to why anyone would even object to such a dogma. It's just for British Catholics or for Catholics in the colonies, this is a big issue since their traditional ... ''opponents'' were the protestants. But globally... really not the issue most people have with Catholicism.

Right now, the official take of the Church on economic matters is kinda centrist (and since Bergoglio became pope, leftist in rhetoric) but Idk what the general idea was historically, I assume a pro-feudal, anti-industrial take.
As for the first paragraph, it seems to be about historic hostilities.

As for the second paragraph, the each member of the Catholic church seems to hold a hodgepodge of political propositions, and, as for the official stance of the Church, this seems to be the same, as Catholicism predates the conservative-liberal dichotomy that began only around the 18th century AD.
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SlaveofAll
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#20
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#20
(Original post by Kovalensky)
But Hamilton was a pioneer in protectionism and regulation - that would be my point - not a mere insignificant figure. Later German economists like List looked to him to develop mercantilist and protectionist theories which were extremely influential in Germany and elsewhere. Mercantilism or just generally government regulation of the economy (including banking) is as protestant as Martin Luther himself.

Therefore one can't look to the Catholics and go ''lolololol u guys protectionist/regulation lovers we (Protestants) free traders and free marketers"
It might have more to do with political inclinations than with religious belief, I guess.
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