The pronoun question

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Sha-ney-ney
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Why are pronouns important to people?
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i_am_a_person
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because pronouns are often a big part of people's identity
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SlaveofAll
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The emergence of non-cis-heterosexual identities made it so.
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Sha-ney-ney
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(Original post by i_am_a_person)
because pronouns are often a big part of people's identity
I see, peoples identity is important to a person, but that person identity may not be important to another person.
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anosmianAcrimony
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(Original post by SlaveofAll)
The emergence of non-cis-heterosexual identities made it so.
The growing acceptance of non-cis/het identities definitely raised the profile of the idea and made it more known to more people. But it was always important to people. You're a guy - even before or without the LGBT movement, isn't it important to you to be referred to as "he", not "she"?
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anosmianAcrimony
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(Original post by Sha-ney-ney)
I see, peoples identity is important to a person, but that person identity may not be important to another person.
A kind and respectful person will note that it is important to another person and treat it as generally important, even if it doesn't affect them personally.
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Sha-ney-ney
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(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
A kind and respectful person will note that it is important to another person and treat it as generally important, even if it doesn't affect them personally.
What if people hold gender-critical views and don't want to use a specific pronoun. What if a person is a member of a religion that only allow the use of male/ female pronouns such as He/Him She/Her. Should that be respected considering that it's also protected by the equalities act 2010? Should that be respected in a democratic society considering it also carries the weight of the law? Calling people names and such as transphobe etc is not very tolerant and emotionally manipulative. This is a real problem for those in the Muslim community as the religion they are born in isn't usually a choice. The penalty for leaving the religion or being an apostate is death

People can navigate this by using each other's names rather than pronouns.
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glassalice
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My neo-pronouns are iron/ lady/ ironladyself.

Although using nouns as pronouns started out as a joke on 4chan (sources conflict), you must a- keep a straight face and b- use my pronouns.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
The growing acceptance of non-cis/het identities definitely raised the profile of the idea and made it more known to more people. But it was always important to people. You're a guy - even before or without the LGBT movement, isn't it important to you to be referred to as "he", not "she"?
Of course, I do. I was just explaining one of the reasons for the recent emphasis of correct pronouns.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by Sha-ney-ney)
What if people hold gender-critical views and don't want to use a specific pronoun. What if a person is a member of a religion that only allow the use of male/ female pronouns such as He/Him She/Her. Should that be respected considering that it's also protected by the equalities act 2010? Should that be respected in a democratic society considering it also carries the weight of the law? Calling people names and such as transphobe etc is not very tolerant and emotionally manipulative. This is a real problem for those in the Muslim community as the religion they are born in isn't usually a choice. The penalty for leaving the religion or being an apostate is death

People can navigate this by using each other's names rather than pronouns.
As for me, "one" is my go-to pronoun whenever I have to consider the identity of a non-cis-heterosexual person.
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glassalice
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(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
A kind and respectful person will note that it is important to another person and treat it as generally important, even if it doesn't affect them personally.
What if hypothetically the person requesting pronouns that where at odds with my perception of their biological sex wasn't a kind/ respectful person?

What if the pronouns that want me to use make me feel uncomfortable? I recently came across a situation where a non-binary individual decided they only wish to be referred to as 'it'. The term 'it' is often used abusively in reference to LGBT people. Quite a few of their LGBT friends outright refused to use 'it' and others felt deeply resentful.
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SlaveofAll
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(Original post by glassalice)
What if hypothetically the person requesting pronouns that where at odds with my perception of their biological sex wasn't a kind/ respectful person?

What if the pronouns that want me to use make me feel uncomfortable? I recently came across a situation where a non-binary individual decided they only wish to be referred to as 'it'. The term 'it' is often used abusively in reference to LGBT people. Quite a few of their LGBT friends outright refused to use 'it' and others felt deeply resentful.
Well, "one" is an all-around third-person pronoun applicable to anyone regardless of gender.
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ROTL94
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IDK never even heard of them in that context until 5 years ago now even very serious university professors sign off with their pronouns on emails. Like really Dr. Sharon Surname? I never would have guessed I should refer to you by she/her!
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gjd800
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I don't really care

It's really easy not to be a shite, so I just don't behave like a shite
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Obolinda
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moved this to a more relevant section for you
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tazarooni89
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(Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
The growing acceptance of non-cis/het identities definitely raised the profile of the idea and made it more known to more people. But it was always important to people. You're a guy - even before or without the LGBT movement, isn't it important to you to be referred to as "he", not "she"?
For me personally, it is not that important to be called "he" rather than "she". Obviously I prefer to be called "he", but I recognise that it's only because I'm used to it, that's what people have called me since I was born. I don't assume that I have any innate affinity with that pronoun. If I had been called something else ever since I was born, I'd be used to that instead. Equally if you did decide to start calling me "she" from now on, I'd think you were a bit weird but I wouldn't cry myself to sleep about it.

There are also many languages in which there are no separate, gendered words for "he" and "she", in which case it's a non-issue.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Sha-ney-ney)
Why are pronouns important to people?
Same reason that names are important. It's part of someone's identity and refusing to accept that is, well, fairly rude. It's like if someone wants to go by the name "William" but someone insisted on calling them "Bill", or some an entirely different name, then that would only be rude as it goes against what the individual has chosen for themself.
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Djtoodles
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https://i.imgflip.com/3fjzs7.jpg

I can’t really be bothered with all that tbh and I’ve given up trying. The basics like she/him/her/he are just too ingrained in my mind to try and force myself to refer to someone who is obviously a man or women as they/them simply because they decided that term based on reality isn’t preferable.
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Sha-ney-ney
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Same reason that names are important. It's part of someone's identity and refusing to accept that is, well, fairly rude. It's like if someone wants to go by the name "William" but someone insisted on calling them "Bill", or some an entirely different name, then that would only be rude as it goes against what the individual has chosen for themself.
This is a pure strawman argument.

usually, a name is a method of identifying each other and forms a social contract/agreement between people or the world at large. A name is also a method for legal identification of a person used for a myriad of things in life so it's protected by law in some cases (contracts etc).

Asking someone to change the way they speak and the language they have to use because they see the world in a different way is also massively rude. I don't think we should wholesale change the way we see things and label things because a minority want their own way, that is rude and narcissistic.

If someone prescribes to the notion of biological sex and, that sex matters over gender identity and, are gender critical then they have that right which is protected under the equalities act. That right is protected by law while pronouns aren't and to force someone to use them is narcissism unless they have transitioned and have a transition cert etc. Calling someone a transphobe for not bowing down to their ideological driven identity is emotional manipulation and a pure narcissist tactic. This is often the case with non-binary and gender-fluid etc.

Can I ask you which is more important to you?

1. Objective reality or subjective reality?
2. The law of the land or someone's feelings?
3. Legal standards or standards based on other arbitrary standards based on feelings?
4. Language standards that are based on correct English grammar or a new cumbersome standard that suit Queer theory ideology?
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Napp
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Got to get all het up over something right? Heaven forfend someone call you Mr or Ms by accident :rolleyes:
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