Black Widow = Absolute garbage movie.

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Pythian
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#1
In light of the Scarlett J's lawsuit, I think we should all be demanding a refund.

This movie is absolutely embarrassing. There must come a time when Marvel should just f** off back to their magazines.

Reasons the movie is total garbage:
- Inane mindless CGI for the sake of it. Do we need Black W. to fly through the sky? What does that add to anything?
- Characters & dialogue that are so boring and idiotic (Black Widow has no personality or character. It's like a mindless robot. I don't think Scarlett has any idea who this character is.).
- Plot that don't even make any sense. Why is her sister and her fighting for some 6 mins of cinema time for no reason and to no effect? :confused:
- The constant need to have a funny character to inject "jokes" and levity that kills the feel of the movie.

No wonder Scarlett is suing them - she obviously did it for the money.


(IN constrast - I think the John Wick movies are some of the best action movies currently at the moment. See my other thread on why I think so, if interested.)
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Final Fantasy
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Get woke, go broke.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Pythian)
In light of the Scarlett J's lawsuit, I think we should all be demanding a refund.

This movie is absolutely embarrassing. There must come a time when Marvel should just f** off back to their magazines.

Reasons the movie is total garbage:
- Inane mindless CGI for the sake of it. Do we need Black W. to fly through the sky? What does that add to anything?
- Characters & dialogue that are so boring and idiotic (Black Widow has no personality or character. It's like a mindless robot. I don't think Scarlett has any idea who this character is.).
- Plot that don't even make any sense. Why is her sister and her fighting for some 6 mins of cinema time for no reason and to no effect? :confused:
- The constant need to have a funny character to inject "jokes" and levity that kills the feel of the movie.

No wonder Scarlett is suing them - she obviously did it for the money.


(IN constrast - I think the John Wick movies are some of the best action movies currently at the moment. See my other thread on why I think so, if interested.)
I don't know what the problem is.

In terms of these movies, Black Widow was par. Every criticism you level at it would apply to at least half of all superhero films, and at least 66% of all action films.

This hating on Marvel and ScarJo is just another trendy bandwagon to jump on.
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Pythian
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(Original post by Trinculo)
I don't know what the problem is.

In terms of these movies, Black Widow was par. Every criticism you level at it would apply to at least half of all superhero films, and at least 66% of all action films.

This hating on Marvel and ScarJo is just another trendy bandwagon to jump on.
The problem with the Marvel Cinematic Universe is that it is effectively the same movie/script/story/CGI over-and-over again - just with different people. The Iron Man film accidentally launched this billion dollar juggernaut. It seems so long ago but Robert Downey Jr. was a risky bet. He was a troubled actor bet for the studios - much less have him as the anchor of the entire franchise. I actually have enjoyed Robert Downey Jr. more in other movies. Tony Stark gets a bit tiring after several movies.

However, I do think the Black Widow is even more stupid than the other Marvel movies. There is no intelligent plot. Black Widow has no real personality. There is so much gratuitous CGI/fighting that doesn't really make any sense - but merely fighting for the sake of it. The story arch doesn't show growth of the protagonist that a conventional superhero undergoes. As for the whole smoke that wakes them up from his control. Oh dear ... :erm:

The superhero movies that I think are great:

- The Dark Knight - The Joker/Batman relationship is fascinating. The villain doesn't want to take over the world as usual - but instead forces the protagonist to make choices that involve challenging their (and our) ethical/moral values. The villain is much more subtle and therefore more exciting/dangerous. C. Nolan is one of the great directors. The twist of whether the convicts would detonate the bomb as opposed to 'civilised' folk on their respective vessels, in my opinion, is one of the greatest suspense plot devises in any movie - as well as being deeply profound.

- V for Vendetta - Not sure if it qualifies as a superhero movies but Hugo Weaving does have some super powers? There's a lot of interesting symbolism in the movie - such as why he took to the mask. So many nuances and the story exposes flaws on each side. So interesting that V can remain morally ambiguous & let Evey decide whether to blow Parliament in the end.

- Spider-Man 2 - I really enjoy this movie. It captures the growth of the superhero in the arc of his/her development. It's so rare to feel that superhero is truly getting his ass kicked and may not make it. In the movie, he nearly tears himself in two trying to stop the train; and collapses from the strain. People then notice and say "he's just a kid". There's something beautiful in the way that it captures the story's overarching premise: with great power comes great responsibility. They all gather to protect him and keep his identity secret too. It's so touching. In Black Widow, she can have an entire city fall on her; and it means nothing. The Black Widow - as a superhero - has no real growth. Even as a child - she is like a robot. It's impossible to really emote or be absorbed by her sister's growth because she is constantly making facile jokes. The resort to humour can hugely diminish the gravity of the moment. I especially love that the villain - Doctor Octopus - is defeated not by Spider-Man but by Peter Parker.

- Thanos in Infinity War - The saving grace was Thanos. I enjoyed the nuances in his motivations that can make him seem like the protagonist of the film.
Last edited by Pythian; 1 month ago
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Son of the Sea
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Good to read this. I was going to watch the film at some point but now I've been hearing lots of bad reviews so won't bother. Cheers!
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Pythian)
The problem with the Marvel Cinematic Universe is that it is effectively the same movie/script/story/CGI over-and-over again - just with different people. The Iron Man film accidentally launched this billion dollar juggernaut. It seems so long ago but Robert Downey Jr. was a risky bet. He was a troubled actor bet for the studios - much less have him as the anchor of the entire franchise. I actually have enjoyed Robert Downey Jr. more in other movies. Tony Stark gets a bit tiring after several movies.

However, I do think the Black Widow is even more stupid than the other Marvel movies. There is no intelligent plot. Black Widow has no real personality. There is so much gratuitous CGI/fighting that doesn't really make any sense - but merely fighting for the sake of it. The story arch doesn't show growth of the protagonist that a conventional superhero undergoes. As for the whole smoke that wakes them up from his control. Oh dear ... :erm:

The superhero movies that I think are great:

- The Dark Knight - The Joker/Batman relationship is fascinating. The villain doesn't want to take over the world as usual - but instead forces the protagonist to make choices that involve challenging their (and our) ethical/moral values. The villain is much more subtle and therefore more exciting/dangerous. C. Nolan is one of the great directors. The twist of whether the convicts would detonate the bomb as opposed to 'civilised' folk on their respective vessels, in my opinion, is one of the greatest suspense plot devises in any movie - as well as being deeply profound.

- V for Vendetta - Not sure if it qualifies as a superhero movies but Hugo Weaving does have some super powers? There's a lot of interesting symbolism in the movie - such as why he took to the mask. So many nuances and the story exposes flaws on each side. So interesting that V can remain morally ambiguous & let Evey decide whether to blow Parliament in the end.

- Spider-Man 2 - I really enjoy this movie. It captures the growth of the superhero in the arc of his/her development. It's so rare to feel that superhero is truly getting his ass kicked and may not make it. In the movie, he nearly tears himself in two trying to stop the train; and collapses from the strain. People then notice and say "he's just a kid". There's something beautiful in the way that it captures the story's overarching premise: with great power comes great responsibility. They all gather to protect him and keep his identity secret too. It's so touching. In Black Widow, she can have an entire city fall on her; and it means nothing. The Black Widow - as a superhero - has no real growth. Even as a child - she is like a robot. It's impossible to really emote or be absorbed by her sister's growth because she is constantly making facile jokes. The resort to humour can hugely diminish the gravity of the moment. I especially love that the villain - Doctor Octopus - is defeated not by Spider-Man but by Peter Parker.

- Thanos in Infinity War - The saving grace was Thanos. I enjoyed the nuances in his motivations that can make him seem like the protagonist of the film.
I think this is a little unfair - I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think this needs to be in context. Black Widow isn't a super clever or amazing movie - but not that many action films are. The plot of MCU films is recycled - yes - and a large number of movies are recycled. We're on Fast & Furious 9. One of the best action films of all time - Heat, was a facsimile of LA Takedown by the same director.

The films you mention are a couple of superhero films out of dozens. Even if you put them at the top, that puts Black Widow somewhere in the middle of the rest of the pack. I feel that there is a sense that people can sometimes decide whether or not they like a movie, and then build praise or criticism around that. Personally, I thought Black Panther was no better than Black Widow, but Panther obviously has Political/Cultural top cover. I find some Nolan Batman films really really dull - especially Begins, which is just tedious. I sat through the Snyder Cut of JL. It was.....ok, a marginal improvement on the Joss Wheedon one, but frankly, I could hardly tell the difference - but some fans were frothing at the mouth about how wonderful it was.

One of the features of superhero films is that they rely very heavily on special effects and CGI - simply because they are often trying to portray the impossible.This means that they will almost always be beholden to the state of the art of SFX and CGI. Some films just couldn't be made until the innovation had occured - and this causes a constant cycle of remakes and reboots, so that stories can be retold with the latest and best technology. Batman, Spiderman and Superman seem to be in a neverending cycle of reboots to the extent that their backstory no longer needs to be told, and like with Tom Holland, they didn't bother - and just assumed that people knew what was going on.
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StriderHort
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Ah well, if it gets this sort of bilious reaction from certain sorts of people it can't be all bad
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Foxehh
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(Original post by Pythian)
... she obviously did it for the money.
You mean... an actress did her job for money? Shocking accusation.

I really didnt mind the movie. Nothing to write home about but it did have me on the edge of my seat at times.
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SirNoodles
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I agree. I get that people get hyped for Marvel but I found the plot fairly boring and confusing. Nor did I find it that entertaining and the action was all just very predictable and unoriginal for me.

While comedy was slightly over-used I do have to admit it made me chuckle at times and the Red Guardian was pretty funny.

Yet again, I'm not a Marvel fan and I find Marvel overrated so I'm not really the best person to properly judge Marvel films
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The Malevolent
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Can we at least agree on the fact that the opening scenes of this movie, up until the opening credits, were amazing? The opening song gave me so many goosebumps.

When it comes to the rest of the film, I have mixed feelings, but my opinions have been mentioned in some place or another by people above, so I won't comment.
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Pythian
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(Original post by Trinculo)
I think this is a little unfair - I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think this needs to be in context. Black Widow isn't a super clever or amazing movie - but not that many action films are. The plot of MCU films is recycled - yes - and a large number of movies are recycled. We're on Fast & Furious 9. One of the best action films of all time - Heat, was a facsimile of LA Takedown by the same director.

The films you mention are a couple of superhero films out of dozens. Even if you put them at the top, that puts Black Widow somewhere in the middle of the rest of the pack. I feel that there is a sense that people can sometimes decide whether or not they like a movie, and then build praise or criticism around that. Personally, I thought Black Panther was no better than Black Widow, but Panther obviously has Political/Cultural top cover. I find some Nolan Batman films really really dull - especially Begins, which is just tedious. I sat through the Snyder Cut of JL. It was.....ok, a marginal improvement on the Joss Wheedon one, but frankly, I could hardly tell the difference - but some fans were frothing at the mouth about how wonderful it was.

One of the features of superhero films is that they rely very heavily on special effects and CGI - simply because they are often trying to portray the impossible.This means that they will almost always be beholden to the state of the art of SFX and CGI. Some films just couldn't be made until the innovation had occured - and this causes a constant cycle of remakes and reboots, so that stories can be retold with the latest and best technology. Batman, Spiderman and Superman seem to be in a neverending cycle of reboots to the extent that their backstory no longer needs to be told, and like with Tom Holland, they didn't bother - and just assumed that people knew what was going on.
Interesting post. Thanks for replying. I have to agree with you on Heat. I've never watched LA Takedown so thanks for that.
If BW is in the middle, what would you say is the worst action superhero movie? and why?
Generally, I think I would have to agree with you about Batman. I used to love watching Michael Keaton's Batman as a young boy. I might have to rewatch it.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Pythian)
Interesting post. Thanks for replying. I have to agree with you on Heat. I've never watched LA Takedown so thanks for that.
If BW is in the middle, what would you say is the worst action superhero movie? and why?
Generally, I think I would have to agree with you about Batman. I used to love watching Michael Keaton's Batman as a young boy. I might have to rewatch it.
Watch LA Takedown. You'll be surprised. It's like putting the animated Lord of the Rings next to the Peter Jackson films. Of course, Michael Mann explicitly said he wanted to remake LA Takedown with more money.

I think superhero films that are worse than BW - Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel, Guardians 2, The Iron Man with Ben Kingsley, Hulk with Ed Norton, every Kilmer and Clooney Batman, WW84, Green Lantern, every Fantastic Four film. I'd also add that the only thing I liked about Suicide Squad was The Enchantress, and that Age of Ultron was a total total mess - but in the round, they're not "worse" than BW. It's not a great comparison to add in TV, but Batwoman, Supergirl, Iron Fist, Falcon & Winter Soldier and later series of Arrow and Flash are all much much worse than Black Widow.

I think a better comparison is this - BW isn't really a superhero film. It's the second worst Jason Bourne film.
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SHallowvale
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I honestly loved the film, I'm surprised that the reception to it is so mixed! :eek:
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ROTL94
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Marvel's gotta milk that cash cow. That's all they have been doing for years.
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Theloniouss
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It was a pretty average superhero movie. Even your reasons why it's "absolute garbage" are just a description of an average superhero movie.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by StriderHort)
Ah well, if it gets this sort of bilious reaction from certain sorts of people it can't be all bad
What exactly do you mean by that?
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BlueIndigoViolet
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it was pretty great imo, don’t understand the criticism
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StriderHort
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(Original post by Trinculo)
What exactly do you mean by that?
It amuses me to see fanboys and girls grind their teeth, the ones in denial about being fans especially, there isn't much else on for entertainment these days. (I know better than to watch the film anyway )
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The Malevolent
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(Original post by StriderHort)
It amuses me to see fanboys and girls grind their teeth, the ones in denial about being fans especially, there isn't much else on for entertainment these days. (I know better than to watch the film anyway )
I mean... if someone genuinely enjoyed the film then I don't understand why anyone would mind.

I do agree with the "fans in denial" part, but when it comes to people who admit to being fans, it just comes down to a difference of opinion, no? No big deal at the end of the day.
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StriderHort
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(Original post by The Malevolent)
I mean... if someone genuinely enjoyed the film then I don't understand why anyone would mind.

I do agree with the "fans in denial" part, but when it comes to people who admit to being fans, it just comes down to a difference of opinion, no? No big deal at the end of the day.
Well I didn't say it was ever a big deal, I said it amuses me. If I treated it like it really mattered I'd be the same people that I'm chuckling at

(Honestly, if you don't/can't keep a sense of detachment from huuuuuge multi billion franchises like these I think you're setting yourself up for as life of disappointments)
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