Extra places on medical and dentistry courses for 2021

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04MR17
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e...urses-for-2021

https://www.fenews.co.uk/press-relea...-of-the-future

Breaking story just now...
Medical and dentistry schools across England will get additional funding to expand courses for the coming academic year to fulfil more offers for UK students who achieve the required grades.

In response to this year’s unprecedented situation the Government has adjusted the cap on medical and dentistry places so that more students than ever will have the opportunity to study on these courses in 2021, and in the long term help boost our future NHS workforce.


Some journalists are already suggesting this may be because so many students have met their offers to attend these courses, that some institutions may be breaching their existing caps on places just to fulfill their offers already in place.

What do you think about this story?
Do you see this as a good thing?
Has the government acted fairly here?



BIG CAVEAT: I would really encourage users who are currently holding offers for medicine and dentistry not to worry too much about this. If you have met your offer requirements, the university you're holding an offer with must honour the offers they give out to you.
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PQ
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“Over 9,000 places” isn’t actually an increase
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https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk...ental-intakes/
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04MR17
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(Original post by PQ)
“Over 9,000 places” isn’t actually an increase
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https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk...ental-intakes/
I think the actual news is:
For this academic year, universities that can accommodate an increase to medical and dentistry places for students that have met the grades and hold a firm offer at a university with pressure on places will be supported to do so. For these universities that can take on more students that have met the grades whilst also ensuring teaching, learning and assessments standards are maintained, there will be flexibility to add to their numbers.

Basically confirming that universities who have offered out too many places and have only now realised that they're expanding beyond their permitted numbers will be let off the hook this year.
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PQ
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(Original post by 04MR17)
I think the actual news is:
For this academic year, universities that can accommodate an increase to medical and dentistry places for students that have met the grades and hold a firm offer at a university with pressure on places will be supported to do so. For these universities that can take on more students that have met the grades whilst also ensuring teaching, learning and assessments standards are maintained, there will be flexibility to add to their numbers.

Basically confirming that universities who have offered out too many places and have only now realised that they're expanding beyond their permitted numbers will be let off the hook this year.
Looking at the numbers I think the real story is that in the middle of a pandemic the government cut the caps BELOW 9,000 places (even though the cap was 11,500 in 2020) and only panicked to increase them days before the results came out.
But that’s what happens when the press report the spin in the press release without looking closer.!
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学生の父
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(Original post by 04MR17)
I think the actual news is:
For this academic year, universities that can accommodate an increase to medical and dentistry places for students that have met the grades and hold a firm offer at a university with pressure on places will be supported to do so. For these universities that can take on more students that have met the grades whilst also ensuring teaching, learning and assessments standards are maintained, there will be flexibility to add to their numbers.

Basically confirming that universities who have offered out too many places and have only now realised that they're expanding beyond their permitted numbers will be let off the hook this year.
But there will only be so many clinical placements available in 2/3 years, and only so many preregistration jobs in 5/6 years. It isn't just a matter of seats in the lecture hall (or slots on Zoom).
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04MR17
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(Original post by PQ)
only panicked to increase them days before the results came out.
Government panicking and making very late announcements is surely not news by now. :rolleyes:
(Original post by 学生の父)
But there will only be so many clinical placements available in 2/3 years, and only so many preregistration jobs in 5/6 years. It isn't just a matter of seats in the lecture hall (or slots on Zoom).
Oh I agree, universities will have a tough time accommodating extra numbers if their cohort increases by a lot. However, if you're a Med school and you've given out 200 offers for 100 spaces, and in a normal year would have 120 offer holders miss out or go elsewhere; what happens if you actually get 150 offer holders meeting all their conditions due to unprecedented grade inflation? Your marketing department won't let you reject applicants who've met their offer conditions because of the shitstorm it could cause on PR (never mind the fuss from UCAS).
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04MR17
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This is also worth noting:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57908436
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GANFYD
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https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...places-england
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PQ
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Government panicking and making very late announcements is surely not news by now. :rolleyes:

Oh I agree, universities will have a tough time accommodating extra numbers if their cohort increases by a lot. However, if you're a Med school and you've given out 200 offers for 100 spaces, and in a normal year would have 120 offer holders miss out or go elsewhere; what happens if you actually get 150 offer holders meeting all their conditions due to unprecedented grade inflation? Your marketing department won't let you reject applicants who've met their offer conditions because of the shitstorm it could cause on PR (never mind the fuss from UCAS).
Government U turn again…not a surprise no
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PQ
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Even in England alone - the intake in 2020 was 9,285. So they CUT the caps to below 9k for 2021 and have panicked into raising them to 2020 levels because they’re worried about the PR of universities rejecting or deferring med places during a pandemic.
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GANFYD
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(Original post by PQ)
Even in England alone - the intake in 2020 was 9,285. So they CUT the caps to below 9k for 2021 and have panicked into raising them to 2020 levels because they’re worried about the PR of universities rejecting or deferring med places during a pandemic.
The Government have clearly stated all along that the cap would be back in place for 2021 medicine entry, threatening significant penalties if it was breached, after they relaxed it in 2020, so another (unsurprising) u-turn that they have removed it. How are unis supposed to function and plan with this background of shifting goalposts? I do not know where they are going to find extra clinical placements for 1000 extra students a year without compromising training - we took 4 instead of 2 this last year, and are now taking zero, as the experience was so awful!
And they cannot just increase med school places without it impacting on FY places and beyond.
They are just idiots who have no idea what they are doing and the repercussions on applicants now will carry on through their training, likely meaning more failures at med school and people without jobs after qualification. So depressing, as if they cannot even get this right, what hope is there for the rest of it?
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becausethenight
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This is a mess.

My cohort are literally worried we won’t have jobs - can’t imagine how stressful it will be for the year below with this. Or for the faculty now desperately trying to find more tutors and placements.

But all anyone seems to care about is the “more doctors! Yay!” line :rolleyes:
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uxa595
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There is a degree of flexibility in the FY system. Usually leftovers go to international students. I guess there will just be no leftovers and a little cramming to fit some additional students in.
All in all, there aren't THAT many more medics in training.
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GANFYD
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(Original post by uxa595)
There is a degree of flexibility in the FY system. Usually leftovers go to international students. I guess there will just be no leftovers and a little cramming to fit some additional students in.
All in all, there aren't THAT many more medics in training.
Well, there were a thousand extra people starting med school last year, I think? That is an 11% increase. And if it is turns into 2000 extra this year? That is about 20%. Is there that much flex in the system? And what about Consultant jobs? Many of the international juniors go back after training, but the UK grads may want to stay here.
It may be that there are enough jobs out there, but competition levels are going to go up considerably and training will become an even more soul-sapping experience.
Plus, what are they going to do for the next few years? As the Government made it clear they did not want to pay for extra places this year, so if they do cut back for approx 11K to 9K places, what happens to that 2 year cohort in the future? As nobody is going to increase training programme places if it is just for 2 years......
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uxa595
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(Original post by GANFYD)
Well, there were a thousand extra people starting med school last year, I think? That is an 11% increase. And if it is turns into 2000 extra this year? That is about 20%. Is there that much flex in the system? And what about Consultant jobs? Many of the international juniors go back after training, but the UK grads may want to stay here.
It may be that there are enough jobs out there, but competition levels are going to go up considerably and training will become an even more soul-sapping experience.
Plus, what are they going to do for the next few years? As the Government made it clear they did not want to pay for extra places this year, so if they do cut back for approx 11K to 9K places, what happens to that 2 year cohort in the future? As nobody is going to increase training programme places if it is just for 2 years......
Fair point. How many of these students will pass their degree though given the inaccuracy of grading? That will somewhat mitigate the increase.

I've seen many students who deserve a set of B/Cs be awarded straight A's and above.
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GANFYD
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(Original post by uxa595)
Fair point. How many of these students will pass their degree though given the inaccuracy of grading? That will somewhat mitigate the increase.

I've seen many students who deserve a set of B/Cs be awarded straight A's and above.
Great, so we send a cohort of people to med school, charge them a lot of money, put them through a difficult year (or more), and then throw them out somewhere along the route? Not sure that is better for the individual concerned, or the profession. Far better for them to find out before investing thousands of pounds that they do not have the correct academic capabilities
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04MR17
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I do wonder how many students may drop out anyway?
Will we see the Medicine drop-out rate increasing?
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GANFYD
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(Original post by 04MR17)
I do wonder how many students may drop out anyway?
Will we see the Medicine drop-out rate increasing?
Certainly more likely if they are struggling academically, I'd have thought. But as I say, I do not feel this is a good way of controlling numbers (though they do it in Europe), as it leaves people with financial debt and psychological scars
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04MR17
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(Original post by GANFYD)
Certainly more likely if they are struggling academically, I'd have thought. But as I say, I do not feel this is a good way of controlling numbers (though they do it in Europe), as it leaves people with financial debt and psychological scars
Oh yeah I agree, it shouldn't be forced. But I do wonder if universities should make some preparation for how to support students who are in that position, have places on likely alternative courses rather than simply drop off the list and vanish.
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Oh yeah I agree, it shouldn't be forced. But I do wonder if universities should make some preparation for how to support students who are in that position, have places on likely alternative courses rather than simply drop off the list and vanish.
It makes me cross that anybody (students and unis) are being put in this position. I am aware of the pandemic, but surely things (everything) could be managed better than this??
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