Are mandatory covid vaccinations justified?

Original post by harrysbar

Yes indeed, very convincing evidence...

Reply 582

Original post by harrysbar

For once just try making a point without calling for back up. They are not being forced as they still have free will and could get another job, but they are being strongly incentivised. And you only have to look at the example of care home staff - 90% of whom I believe are now vaccinated- to see that the incentive will work.

The majority of people do support mandatory vaccination- I’m on my phone at the moment so it’s hard to find the link but I’ll post it later

What if they don't want another job, what if they like caring for people and healing the sick? I don't really like the NHS but even to me, it's weird that people have suddenly gone from "they are heroes" and applauding them every week to now wanting them fired. A nurse might have spent years in the NHS and all they care about, all they want to do in their life and career is care for the sick, and now the public wants to sack them just because that nurse might not feel safe getting jabbed? I find that completely two faced after the whole weekly applause stuff. I rant about them but at least I'm consistent.

(edited 2 years ago)

Reply 583

Original post by Megacent

Either you are jabbed or fired.
The new argument here is that they have the right to choose another job... :rofl:

Reply 584

Original post by PilgrimOfTruth

YOU can't prevent others going to ICU by YOU getting the jabs. It is THEY that would have to get the jabs not you and it's an entirely personal decision for them as to whether they take those shots and whether they see Covid as any kind of serious risk to their health.

Could you please point out where I said that? As an individual, I can reduce the risk of going to ICU by getting vaccinated. Other individuals can do the same. That is why there are no longer 40,000+ people in hospital. That was my point. As an individual, it is a no brainer to take the vaccine with a view to reducing your risk of ending up in hospital. The evidence is clear as day and to use a lucifer saying - it is simple common sense and logic.

I appreciate you may feel I am doing badly on these topics but at least the evidence I post is credible and I have read it.

Reply 585

Original post by Talkative Toad

well its a human right to be able refuse medication so there's that. Do you support abortions like i do? if so what is your reason for supporting them?

That's a fair point I suppose. I am just thinking of the exhausted hospital staff many of whom or suffering severe metal health issues and how they would have to deal with someone refusing treatment on a political point of principal. Such people are on the sort of level as Insulate Britain. They are selfishly stressing out a good many people to make a pointless argument.

Reply 586

Original post by hotpud

Lost track of the earlier quotes, was it you who said I would be "selfish" by telling nurses not to treat me because they would be upset at watching me die? If so, can you explain that? Some of them have openly said they don't want to treat me, that I deserve to be left to die. If that's what they truly want, then why would they be upset in me giving them what they want?

It's like "You're selfish if you want us to treat you but you're also selfish if you tell us not to treat you". It can't be both, as you can't have things both ways. So which one is it?

Reply 587

Original post by hotpud

I am just thinking of the exhausted hospital staff many of whom or suffering severe metal health issues and how they would have to deal with someone refusing treatment on a political point of principal.

But isn't that what exactly what they want? I have literally seen nurses say that they don't want to treat the unvaccinated. So why would they be stressed or unhappy? I thought they WANT people like me to refuse treatment!

It's so frustrating because it's like no matter what, I get called selfish. I'd be wrong to accept treatment but also wrong to refuse it. Can't bloody win!

(edited 2 years ago)

Reply 588

Original post by Megacent

I don't believe covid is a hoax or conspiracy, I just think they are massively exaggerating how deadly it is. For most people, it's a mild disease you will make a full recovery from. The flu kills people as well but I don't live my life in fear of catching it nor do I bother with a flu jab, simply because the statistical likelyhood of it killing me is insignificant.

As for the unvaccinated being "selfish" by taking up medical resources, I've said that I'd be willing to sign a waiver that the NHS don't need to treat me for covid. But apparently that's also selfish as people say it would upset the health workers having to just watch me die. But I don't understand that. Some health workers are saying they think the unvaccinated are unworthy of treatment. They are saying they should have the right to refuse us treatment. So why would they be upset at me giving them exactly what they want? They don't want to treat me, but they'd also be upset if I said fine don't treat me. Can't have it both ways, so which is it?

All you have to do is look at the infection fatality rate IFR and you will see how exaggerated the situation has become.
Obviously for political and financial reasons imo.

We have several arguments here that have been refuted. As there is a vaccine obsession which is based on dogma rather than evidence. Overall there is a dogma surrounding Covid. Creepy...

Refuted Arguments & Claims

1) The vaccines are the way out of this pandemic
2) Vaccines provide long term protection or even lifelong protection
3) There are very few side effects from vaccinations and not serious ones.
4) Long term safety has been established
5) Vaccines reduce significantly transmission
6) Natural Immunity is weak or inferior to induced immunity or even doesn't exist in this case (one of the most derailed arguments)
7) Unvaccinated individuals are usually conspiracy theorists
8) Covid has a high IFR and CFR

Into my opinion and understanding the above have been clearly shown not to be true but they are used as part of the Covid Dogma.

You can add more in the list.
.

Reply 589

Original post by hotpud

You don't need to be 'treated' with a vaccine if you have a good immune system and can deal with the infection in your own. Or have had already natural immunity.

The rest is the usual appeal to emotion.
Pushing vaccinations and medications for all is at odds with common sense, logic, and science. Vaccines are created for specific groups of people. Medicines in general are specific to individuals or certain groups. A specific treatment may not necessarily be effective and safe for the entire population of 8 Billion people.

Reply 590

Original post by PilgrimOfTruth

I agree.

It's a desperately poor and childish sleight to say ""you are happy for people to become seriously ill or die"..

Simply identifies that the poster has become frustrated through having no sound argument.
Sad to see. Internet debate is not for everyone, but it really exposes some people.

It is true unfortunately. These are not valid arguments but desperate attempts to push some narratives in the absence of any evidence just as you said above:

'You appear to just want to push certain narratives but have absolutely no case or arguments behind them which is I suspect why you get so frustrated and end up resorting to baseless insults like "toe rag" and "you are happy for people to become seriously ill or die" '

If someone doesn't have valid arguments or knowledge and understanding of matters then they cannot push their narratives which results in constant frustration, appeals to emotion, emotional blackmailing and baseless insults and attacks. But these are self defeating arguments and the claims made by the above user have already been answered and refuted.

Furthermore and as you say there is no justification for mandatory vaccinations. No justification in terms of ethics, law, or science.

Reply 591

Original post by Megacent

It is called being a caring human being. When your job is to look after people it is heart destroying to see someone refuse that help and worse still if it is for a pointless political point scoring exercise which seems to be where you appear to be coming from.

Reply 592

No, it's because I don't want to risk taking this jab until I know the true scale of any potential side effects. I'm seeing more and more stories online about young people suddenly dying from heart issues. Football players having heart attacks after being jabbed. Women are reporting issues with their periods. And yet all we hear from Comical Chris and the rest of the scientists is the same old "safe and effective" line.

(edited 2 years ago)

Reply 593

Original post by Megacent

That's fair enough. But just for balance, I too am seeing lots of stories online and in real life about young people who didn't get vaccinated who ended up at death's door in ICU barely able to breath. But hey ho. I guess several hundred million vaccinations with no lasting side effects isn't enough for some?

Reply 594

Original post by Megacent

The user above doesn't understand the risk to benefit ratio meaning and that healthy young people are not in any significant risk to get sick and die from Covid. They have in principle more to loose than to gain into my opinion by experimenting with a new vaccine. Especially the young children, teenagers, and young and healthy adults in their 20s or 30s. There is another major issue which is both ethical and medical. You never experiment with children. And certainly you are very cautious with young healthy adults as a matter of safety and National Security. You can make experiments with the 65+ year olds given the expected age of death is around 80 years. But to experiment with 15 or 20 year old into my understanding is both idiotic and dangerous.

@TCA2b
@PilgrimOfTruth
@The RAR

Reply 595

Original post by hotpud

Appeals to emotion and nothing more than that.

Reply 596

Original post by hotpud

If I knew for a fact those are what the odds were, then maybe. The most logical option would be look at the odds from both the virus and the vaccine and chose the one that offered the least risk. But who do I trust to give me those odds? I'm worried they aren't giving us the full story about side effects. They are very quick to shut down discussion about myocarditis and clots, and now there are all these young people "suddenly" dying from heart attacks. How many young people normally have heart attacks let alone die from them? Could be nothing and a total coincidence, but I just feel a bit uneasy and not inclined to trust them right now.

(edited 2 years ago)

Reply 597

Supermature

Original post by harrysbar

The point in waiting until April is stated in the article [https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/03/covid-jabs-to-be-compulsory-for-nhs-staff-in-england-from-april]; it is to prevent an exodus of staff during the winter.
Like the “small majority of hospital bosses” I’m glad personally that they are making it compulsory. It’s a shame it has come to this but I think many more NHS staff will now choose to get vaccinated (looking at the example of care home staff) which will be good for society as a whole even if it upsets certain individuals and even forces some who feel very strongly to leave the NHS.

Clearly, the reason that the Government feels it necessary to wait until April is, as the article makes clear, the belief that a significant number of NHS staff will choose to quit rather than be vaccinated, thus exacerbating an already acute staffing shortage. I hesitate to post yet another link but when you look behind the internal arguments you can see that there is substantial doubt as to what net benefit, if any, the vaccination of staff would have for the patients in their care.

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/all-nhs-staff-in-england-will-need-mandatory-covid-and-flu-vaccines-or-risk-losing-their-jobs-1281852

It seems as if the Government is nervous that it might be making a mistake and is fearful of the consequences. Waiting until April simply kicks the can down the road, and avoids political loss of face: after all, they have been repeatedly emphasising that it is the winter months of this season that matter. The agenda has, in effect, been switched from controlling infection to managing rates of staff absence in future years.

We have yet to see what will happen after November 11th when the mandate for care home staff kicks in. According to some reports, as many as 60,000 care home employees will not have had two jabs by that date, potentially leaving some care homes unable to operate. There may be a loophole that would allow unvaccinated care workers to continue working until two days before Christmas with the ghastly prospect of a mass exodus of workers over the Christmas period.

Given that the Covid-19 vaccines do not significantly reduce transmission, the potential loss of hundreds or thousands of skilled and dedicated staff hugely outweighs any benefit that might accrue from mandatory vaccination. Few highly trained professionals will be willing to give up their jobs solely on a point of principle. They have genuine concerns that need to be respected.

As I said in an earlier post, we are likely to see a lengthy war of attrition where the winners will be lawyers and the losers will be patients, care home residents and their families. In the end, the majority will no doubt comply with the mandates but there will be a legacy of anger and bitterness that could become very ugly if more and more employers jump on the bandwagon merely to mitigate staff absences. Is it really worth it for an experimental vaccine that does little to prevent infection or transmission and only confers protection on its recipients for a few months at a time without the need for repeat doses?

Reply 598

Original post by Megacent

Well obviously, in your eyes the data published by the NHS, ONS and other highly regarded universities and research institutes is obviously made up by scientists on a power trip and fact checkers are lying to further their left-wing political aims. You're stuffed.

Me - I trust them simply because I have no reason not to. I also have flu vaccines every year and was vaccinated as a kid and haven't died yet. If I do, I will let you know. These vaccines are nothing new. The latest revision of Anadin Extra has probably had less testing than the current round of covid vaccines and I don't see anyone questioning that.

(edited 2 years ago)

Reply 599