identified as a "high ability student"

Watch
Muttley79
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#21
Report 2 months ago
#21
(Original post by justlearning1469)
Maybe that's because the students aren't so ahead that they are bored even in a high performing school for your anecdotal case.

And for research:
https://www.nagc.org/resources-publi...s/acceleration

And also "A Nation Deceived" volume 1:
http://www.accelerationinstitute.org...ived/ND_v1.pdf
"When great leaders reach society early, everyone benefits."
And also page 2 of that book, The 20 Most Important Points from Volume II of This Report
Acceleration is beneficial.
You didn't write these though - I present the opposite case and suggest we stop taking the thread off topic>

https://www.ukmt.org.uk/sites/defaul...20Students.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.go...c_Nov_2020.pdf

https://nrich.maths.org/9778
0
reply
Nobody2u
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#22
Report 2 months ago
#22
(Original post by rosy_posy)
It sounds like something you should talk to you Head of Year about because it seems like your teachers have something against you and are treating you unfairly.
My son repeatedly had problems with maths teachers who refused to believe he "saw" the answer in his head and that he didn't need to do the ten lines of workings. Instead of explaining the importance of showing his workings if he wanted a good grade, he was repeatedly accused of cheating until a teacher actually took the time to set questions and sit with him whilst he did them. She afterwards said she wouldn't have believed it if she hadn't seen it. My experience with very few exceptions is that teachers can cope with students who have difficulty with work, love the hard working intelligent student, but feel threatened by the really outstanding, so I'm not at all surprised by O.P's experience with teachers. As for jumping classes or having extra work I really believe that it shouldn't be decided by " what is done now", but in collaboration with a neuro psychologist who takes the time to examine each student's individual case. Some extremely bright students have absolutely nothing in common with those of their age, and it is not just the academic environment that they find lacking in stimulation, whilst others adore being top in everything and feel they are failing if this is not the case, so skipping classes would just be a source of anxiety. One solution does not fit all.
1
reply
justlearning1469
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#23
Report 2 months ago
#23
(Original post by Muttley79)
You didn't write these though - I present the opposite case and suggest we stop taking the thread off topic>

https://www.ukmt.org.uk/sites/defaul...20Students.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.go...c_Nov_2020.pdf

https://nrich.maths.org/9778
I didn't write those sources but neither did you for your sources.

One of your sources is what the government declares.
I have made a decent case to the contrary.

You claim for enrichment, but sometimes it isn't enough, sometimes people are just so far ahead, for instance Arran Fernandez going into Cambridge at 15.

From one of my sources, "A Nation Deceived"
“Adult surveys of gifted individuals reveal that they do not regret their acceleration. Rather, they regret not having accelerated more.”
From Lubinski, D.,Webb, R.M., Morelock, M. J., Benbow, C. P. (2001),“Top 1 in 10,000:A 10-year follow-up of the profoundly gifted,” in The Journal of Applied Psychology, 86, 718–729.
And tl;dr "The bottom line: Acceleration works. It must be included in the conversation about how to educate a highly capable child. It is time we stopped deceiving ourselves and our children."
Including you, if you're actually attempting to fight against acceleration.

Additionally "Genius Denied: How to Stop Wasting Our Brightest Young Minds"
https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Denied.../dp/0743254619
In this book, the Davidsons describe the “quiet crisis” in education: gifted students spending their days in classrooms learning little beyond how to cope with boredom as they “review” material they’ve already mastered years before. This lack of challenge leads to frustration, underachievement, and even failure. Some gifted students become severely depressed. At a time when the UK needs a deep intellectual talent pool, the squandering of future revolutionaries is a tragedy.
Last edited by justlearning1469; 2 months ago
0
reply
Nobody2u
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#24
Report 2 months ago
#24
(Original post by justlearning1469)
I didn't write those sources but neither did you for your sources.

One of your sources is what the government declares.
I have made a decent case to the contrary.

You claim for enrichment, but sometimes it isn't enough, sometimes people are just so far ahead, for instance Arran Fernandez going into Cambridge at 15.

From one of my sources, "A Nation Deceived"
“Adult surveys of gifted individuals reveal that they do not regret their acceleration. Rather, they regret not having accelerated more.”
From Lubinski, D.,Webb, R.M., Morelock, M. J., Benbow, C. P. (2001),“Top 1 in 10,000:A 10-year follow-up of the profoundly gifted,” in The Journal of Applied Psychology, 86, 718–729.
And tl;dr "The bottom line: Acceleration works. It must be included in the conversation about how to educate a highly capable child. It is time we stopped deceiving ourselves and our children."
Including you, if you're actually attempting to fight against acceleration.

Additionally "Genius Denied: How to Stop Wasting Our Brightest Young Minds"
https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Denied.../dp/0743254619
In this book, the Davidsons describe the “quiet crisis” in education: gifted students spending their days in classrooms learning little beyond how to cope with boredom as they “review” material they’ve already mastered years before. This lack of challenge leads to frustration, underachievement, and even failure. Some gifted students become severely depressed. At a time when the UK needs a deep intellectual talent pool, the squandering of future revolutionaries is a tragedy.
Having been through this with my son, I couldn't agree more!!
0
reply
Reality Check
Badges: 22
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#25
Report 2 months ago
#25
(Original post by Nobody2u)
My experience with very few exceptions is that teachers can cope with students who have difficulty with work, love the hard working intelligent student, but feel threatened by the really outstanding,
Oh come on - what teacher feels 'threatened' by an eleven year old's intellect :laugh: This is a bit over the top.
1
reply
justlearning1469
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#26
Report 2 months ago
#26
(Original post by Reality Check)
Oh come on - what teacher feels 'threatened' by an eleven year old's intellect :laugh: This is a bit over the top.
Well there are people with large egos, so in that case they might actually be.

I mean it's a bit of an exaggeration but there are a decent amount of teachers who would be jealous/
0
reply
Euapp
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#27
Report 2 months ago
#27
(Original post by Reality Check)
Oh come on - what teacher feels 'threatened' by an eleven year old's intellect :laugh: This is a bit over the top.
Eleven year olds maybe not, but fourteen year olds a whole packet!
0
reply
Muttley79
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#28
Report 2 months ago
#28
(Original post by Reality Check)
Oh come on - what teacher feels 'threatened' by an eleven year old's intellect :laugh: This is a bit over the top.
Exactly - I have taught some amazing students - it's a pleasure to have someone really gifted to teach. There is so much maths out there that is far more interesting than an A level spec!
1
reply
Muttley79
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#29
Report 2 months ago
#29
(Original post by justlearning1469)
I didn't write those sources but neither did you for your sources.

One
I asked for YOUR research - you did not ask for mine.

You haven't made a case at all - I offer the damage to mental health of students like Ruth Lawrence. A young student cannot fully embrace university life - they are just not mature enough and this is, sadly, proved all too often.

I love teaching all students and it is a great delight to have someone really gifted. WHY the need to accelerate when there is so much out there to learn that is not tested in school. I have taught a number of post-docs and current lecturers at top unis - none of them were ever bored at school - nor were they accelerated.

There are great website like NRICH, UKMT and other that offer a different approach.
0
reply
Euapp
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#30
Report 2 months ago
#30
(Original post by Muttley79)
Exactly - I have taught some amazing students - it's a pleasure to have someone really gifted to teach. There is so much maths out there that is far more interesting than an A level spec!
This is what you don't get!! You're saying it's a pleasure to teach the really gifted, but you can't, or at least the vast majority of teachers can't, because they are already way ahead of what you were studying at uni!
0
reply
Muttley79
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#31
Report 2 months ago
#31
(Original post by Euapp)
This is what you don't get!! You're saying it's a pleasure to teach the really gifted, but you can't, or at least the vast majority of teachers can't, because they are already way ahead of what you were studying at uni!
No - my students aren't 'ahead' of me and even if they were I can facilitate enrichment - remember teachers study more than their subject. In the PGCE we study pedagogy and more. Anyway, most of my department are subject specialists with a Masters.
0
reply
justlearning1469
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#32
Report 2 months ago
#32
(Original post by Muttley79)
No - my students aren't 'ahead' of me and even if they were I can facilitate enrichment - remember teachers study more than their subject. In the PGCE we study pedagogy and more. Anyway, most of my department are subject specialists with a Masters.
Good for your department. Though there are various schools with only a Bachelor degree in their subject, they are more vulnerable, though still highly unlikely. And decent points.

A student being ahead of their teacher is exceptionally rare but it could happen.
0
reply
justlearning1469
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#33
Report 2 months ago
#33
(Original post by Euapp)
This is what you don't get!! You're saying it's a pleasure to teach the really gifted, but you can't, or at least the vast majority of teachers can't, because they are already way ahead of what you were studying at uni!
The majority of teachers aren't trained for gifted education, that's a fact, you need gifted education specialists for that.

And for exceptionally gifted, you'd need exceptional provision.
1
reply
Muttley79
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#34
Report 2 months ago
#34
(Original post by justlearning1469)
The majority of teachers aren't trained for gifted education,
It's part of a PGCE ... please get facts straight before you post untruths. Of course, Private school teachers don't need a PGCE so they aren't trained.
0
reply
justlearning1469
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#35
Report 2 months ago
#35
(Original post by Muttley79)
It's part of a PGCE ... please get facts straight before you post untruths. Of course, Private school teachers don't need a PGCE so they aren't trained.
Yes, for the moderately gifted, but for the highly/exceptionally gifted they might be so rare that a teacher has never encountered someone that advanced for their age. Considering highly gifted is top 0.1% and exceptionally gifted is top 0.003% this is possible. Additionally some of them might've been so neglected that they drop out of education due to boredom.

Exceptional people require exceptional provisions.

Differentiation works well for those within two standard deviations. But for the tails you will need significant provisions. And sometimes someone is such an outlier that we need radical acceleration to university as the least worst option.

My research is in the book "A Nation Deceived", in volume 2. You can go read it for yourself if you don't trust my opinion.
0
reply
Muttley79
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#36
Report 2 months ago
#36
(Original post by justlearning1469)

Exceptional people require exceptional provisions.
No they don't - all abilites can be catered for. Please stop as you are taking this thread WAY off topic and it isn't helping the OP.
0
reply
justlearning1469
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#37
Report 2 months ago
#37
(Original post by Muttley79)
I asked for YOUR research - you did not ask for mine.

You haven't made a case at all - I offer the damage to mental health of students like Ruth Lawrence. A young student cannot fully embrace university life - they are just not mature enough and this is, sadly, proved all too often.

I love teaching all students and it is a great delight to have someone really gifted. WHY the need to accelerate when there is so much out there to learn that is not tested in school. I have taught a number of post-docs and current lecturers at top unis - none of them were ever bored at school - nor were they accelerated.

There are great website like NRICH, UKMT and other that offer a different approach.
I did make a case, the case is in the book "A Nation Deceived", both volumes.
'A young student cannot fully embrace university life' Inevitably because of legal age even if they are mature enough, they legally can't drink alcohol.

From http://www.accelerationinstitute.org...ived/ND_v2.pdf
In each of the 11 studies with same-age groups, the accelerated group outperformed the bright non-accelerated control group on achievement tests. In all but one of the studies, the superiority of the accelerated class was great enough to be considered practically significant.

Also from the same link:
"Overall, it seems likely that educational acceleration has a positive effect on a student’s educational plans. Acceleration appears to increase educational ambition. The effect is clear in the responses of accelerated students to questions about advanced degrees."

And for social-emotional effects:
Cornell, Callahan, and Loyd (1991) administered the California Psychological Inventory to early college entrants and matched same-age controls. Immediately on entry to college the accelerated students were lower on the self-acceptance scale of this inventory (ES = –0.88), but by the end of the year, the accelerated group had almost caught up with the non- accelerated group (ES = –0.10)
0
reply
justlearning1469
Badges: 17
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#38
Report 2 months ago
#38
(Original post by Muttley79)
No they don't - all abilites can be catered for. Please stop as you are taking this thread WAY off topic and it isn't helping the OP.
All abilities can't be catered for, there are some people simply too intelligent for most teachers to take care of.

Yeah, the person saying that I ain't 'making a case' when I am is telling me to stop.

How is a regular teacher supposed to cater for a student in top 0.01% of capability, they might not have even experienced those students before. This is why we have gifted education specialists which most teachers are not.

And this is the bottom line, not your 'all abilities can be catered for' nonsense.
And for social-emotional effects, from my link: "Acceleration may have a small negative effect on a student’s scores on tests of self-acceptance or personal adjustment."
Just a small effect, which is usually outweighed by the academic and educational gains. And this is mostly due to the Big-Fish-Little-Pond Effect.

If we remove that effect the effect will be almost nothing.
Last edited by justlearning1469; 2 months ago
0
reply
Euapp
Badges: 20
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#39
Report 2 months ago
#39
(Original post by justlearning1469)
All abilities can't be catered for, there are some people simply too intelligent for most teachers to take care of.

Yeah, the person saying that I ain't 'making a case' when I am is telling me to stop.

How is a regular teacher supposed to cater for a student in top 0.01% of capability, they might not have even experienced those students before. This is why we have gifted education specialists which most teachers are not.

And this is the bottom line, not your 'all abilities can be catered for' nonsense.
And for social-emotional effects, from my link: "Acceleration may have a small negative effect on a student’s scores on tests of self-acceptance or personal adjustment."
Just a small effect, which is usually outweighed by the academic and educational gains. And this is mostly due to the Big-Fish-Little-Pond Effect.

If we remove that effect the effect will be almost nothing.
PRSOM !!
People that say that all levels can be catered for have not in my opinion ever come across the truly gifted. Yes they can cope with the top of the year group child, but not the truly exceptional. For starters those children if nurtured at home have already researched most degree programs and more, but their thought processes and methods of approaching questions is nothing like what will be taught in schools. Being adamant that you can cope is exactly the kind of attitude that makes a truly gifted child's schooling so difficult.Forcing a child to sit through hours of lessons when he could be more productive and more stimulated in another environment is a waste of talent. I know what I'm talking about having experienced the system and its shortcomings first hand. 2 of my children followed the enrichment system and it was perfectly adapted for them, the third made himself sick to avoid going to school.( a highly selective state school) We were advised to see a neuro psychologist specialising in the detection of gifted children. It turned out that number three was that one in ten million child, so the chance that his teacher had covered enough in her pgce to cope with him were next to none and I can say in all honesty now that he's been through university and is completely integrated in a sector that valorises his difference, that the people that caused him the most problems during his education were those that point blank refused to accept their limits.
1
reply
Mentor423235
Badges: 0
Rep:
? You'll earn badges for being active around the site. Rep gems come when your posts are rated by other community members.
#40
Report 2 months ago
#40
(Original post by justlearning1469)
I didn't write those sources but neither did you for your sources.

One of your sources is what the government declares.
I have made a decent case to the contrary.

You claim for enrichment, but sometimes it isn't enough, sometimes people are just so far ahead, for instance Arran Fernandez going into Cambridge at 15.

From one of my sources, "A Nation Deceived"
“Adult surveys of gifted individuals reveal that they do not regret their acceleration. Rather, they regret not having accelerated more.”
From Lubinski, D.,Webb, R.M., Morelock, M. J., Benbow, C. P. (2001),“Top 1 in 10,000:A 10-year follow-up of the profoundly gifted,” in The Journal of Applied Psychology, 86, 718–729.
And tl;dr "The bottom line: Acceleration works. It must be included in the conversation about how to educate a highly capable child. It is time we stopped deceiving ourselves and our children."
Including you, if you're actually attempting to fight against acceleration.

Additionally "Genius Denied: How to Stop Wasting Our Brightest Young Minds"
https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Denied.../dp/0743254619
In this book, the Davidsons describe the “quiet crisis” in education: gifted students spending their days in classrooms learning little beyond how to cope with boredom as they “review” material they’ve already mastered years before. This lack of challenge leads to frustration, underachievement, and even failure. Some gifted students become severely depressed. At a time when the UK needs a deep intellectual talent pool, the squandering of future revolutionaries is a tragedy.
(Original post by Euapp)
PRSOM !!
People that say that all levels can be catered for have not in my opinion ever come across the truly gifted. Yes they can cope with the top of the year group child, but not the truly exceptional. For starters those children if nurtured at home have already researched most degree programs and more, but their thought processes and methods of approaching questions is nothing like what will be taught in schools. Being adamant that you can cope is exactly the kind of attitude that makes a truly gifted child's schooling so difficult.Forcing a child to sit through hours of lessons when he could be more productive and more stimulated in another environment is a waste of talent. I know what I'm talking about having experienced the system and its shortcomings first hand. 2 of my children followed the enrichment system and it was perfectly adapted for them, the third made himself sick to avoid going to school.( a highly selective state school) We were advised to see a neuro psychologist specialising in the detection of gifted children. It turned out that number three was that one in ten million child, so the chance that his teacher had covered enough in her pgce to cope with him were next to none and I can say in all honesty now that he's been through university and is completely integrated in a sector that valorises his difference, that the people that caused him the most problems during his education were those that point blank refused to accept their limits.
I agree with muttley entirely; OP the enrichment work muttley is referring to is ukmt stuff, such as BMO1, BMO2 and SMC papers. They are a lot more interesting than the boring A level content, and the problems that appear in maths olympiads today focus on problem solving skills and using only content taught in high schools to solve incredibly hard problems.

https://www.ukmt.org.uk/competitions...llenge/archive
https://bmos.ukmt.org.uk/home/bmo.shtml#bmo1

these are past papers for competitions that are used to select the IMO team. I recommend u check them out, they are a very good source of problems
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How would you describe the quality of the digital skills you're taught at school?

Excellent (13)
9.03%
Okay (43)
29.86%
A bit lacking (51)
35.42%
Not good at all (37)
25.69%

Watched Threads

View All