67% of young Britons want a socialist system

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Louis IX
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#21
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
So thinking about this more seriously...

1- we have a mixed economy and this isn't going to change. They're not talking about getting rid of private property and nationalising the BoE and scrapping the stock exchange. Even Corbyn didn't dare raise taxes.

2- obviously framing is an issue. Additionally young people might love socialism when they're students but when they started getting taxed for the first time their enthusiasm might change.

3- Also on many of these issues I would argue that they want multiple things which clash. Which is namely increasing libertarianism and giving more power to s centralised state, more globalisation but also more accountability and of course being pro immigration whilst wanting more houses, lower class sizes , whilst keeping our green spaces etc

That said I think they're right to be angry with the status quo. There are serious problems with Society which urgently need to be addedd . The problem is they're doubling down on all the problems.

The West is like a house that's on fire. Centrists/ Liberals are like "oh things are fine. We like our house being on fire" whilst the left are like "the house is on fire, the only way we can put it out is by pouring petrol on it".
PRSOM.
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Starship Trooper
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DlSo what is the answer? Some ideas

1- I think we need to take a hard line against trillionaire corporations, not inherently because they're so successful but because they are helping to promote and push society in a negative direction. We should treat Facebook, Google and Amazon as we would a hostile foreign power because that's essentially what they are.

2- Having net zero immigration. Enough is enough

3- less money to a bloated and corrupt public sector that is more interested in indoctrinating people than doing what they should be. All the while we should begin getting reliable people who share our values into the essential parts of these organisations. In short reverse cultural Marxism

4- realise that the above will be unpopular so take populist countermeasures. Eg tax cuts or/ and stimulus checks. If we can afford to spend billions in Afghanistan we can spend the same on bribing people to keep the left out of power.
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Saracen's Fez
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This has been an interesting discussion so far when kept on track, so please keep it on track and stop the personal attacks and diversions.
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DSilva
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Yes, real change on house prices, wages, job security and income inequality are hindered by a toy company renaming their brand.
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Starship Trooper
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DSilva and SHallowvale

I think the sentiment of what hermit is saying is correct as in the left seems to be more concerned with fringe left wing identity politics than on bread and butter issues. And he is not alone as this feeling is similarly shared by ex labour voters.

Consider that during labours conference this week has been taken up with a labour MP being too scared to attend because she thinks thinks you can't be a woman and have a penis, (the horror)...
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
DSilva and SHallowvale

I think the sentiment of what hermit is saying is correct as in the left seems to be more concerned with fringe left wing identity politics than on bread and butter issues. And he is not alone as this feeling is similarly shared by ex labour voters.

Consider that during labours conference this week has been taken up with a labour MP being too scared to attend because she thinks thinks you can't be a woman and have a penis, (the horror)...
I'm not convinced that the left cares more for fringe left wing identity politics than they do bread and butter issues. If anything, the opposite seems true.

The people I see talking the most about fringe left wing identity politics are predominantly on the right, yet the blame for this is somehow always gets put on the entire left even though only a small number of people actually care about it. The result is that the bread and butter issues the left do actually talk about are just sidelined. This thread is a perfect example of that.
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TCA2b
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
DSilva and SHallowvale

I think the sentiment of what hermit is saying is correct as in the left seems to be more concerned with fringe left wing identity politics than on bread and butter issues. And he is not alone as this feeling is similarly shared by ex labour voters.

Consider that during labours conference this week has been taken up with a labour MP being too scared to attend because she thinks thinks you can't be a woman and have a penis, (the horror)...
I'll be impressed if they began to cotton onto the role of central banking... but it's so integral in financing the schemes they support that it'd be a rather awkward thing to rail against.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
DSilva and SHallowvale

I think the sentiment of what hermit is saying is correct as in the left seems to be more concerned with fringe left wing identity politics than on bread and butter issues. And he is not alone as this feeling is similarly shared by ex labour voters.

Consider that during labours conference this week has been taken up with a labour MP being too scared to attend because she thinks thinks you can't be a woman and have a penis, (the horror)...
I don't agree with that. Being on the left fundamentally is about economic and socio economic issues, wages, housing, wealth inequality, public service provision, education etc. It's what I believe and care about. Other issues are secondary.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss those very bread and butter issues. Indeed we were doing just that. Hermit then decided to take the thread off topic to talk about toy potatoes and then complained we aren't focusing on economic issues :confused:.

Lots of young people do want a more socialist eocnomic system because they don't feel the current capitalist system works for them. That's the focus of this thread, not the gender of toy potatoes.
Last edited by DSilva; 3 weeks ago
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DSilva
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I'm not convinced that the left cares more for fringe left wing identity politics than they do bread and butter issues. If anything, the opposite seems true.

The people I see talking the most about fringe left wing identity politics are predominantly on the right, yet the blame for this is somehow always gets put on the entire left even though only a small number of people actually care about it. The result is that the bread and butter issues the left do actually talk about are just sidelined. This thread is a perfect example of that.
Exactly.

It very much suits the right to drag the discourse onto nonsense issues about toy potatoes and pictures on the wall in University common rooms.

It means we aren't talking about the 'bread and butter issues' that we should be.
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Gaddafi
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We are already incredibly leftist. An actual Conservative party no longer exists. The level of taxation and welfare is unbelievable, the limit of the state knows little bounds with even death being taxed.

Hopefully I don't have the misfortune of dying here.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Gaddafi)
We are already incredibly leftist. An actual Conservative party no longer exists. The level of taxation and welfare is unbelievable, the limit of the state knows little bounds with even death being taxed.

Hopefully I don't have the misfortune of dying here.
I’m in stitches on the floor here at the left believing they are hard done too. :rolleyes:
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DSilva
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#32
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
So thinking about this more seriously...

1- we have a mixed economy and this isn't going to change. They're not talking about getting rid of private property and nationalising the BoE and scrapping the stock exchange. Even Corbyn didn't dare raise taxes.

2- obviously framing is an issue. Additionally young people might love socialism when they're students but when they started getting taxed for the first time their enthusiasm might change.

3- Also on many of these issues I would argue that they want multiple things which clash. Which is namely increasing libertarianism and giving more power to s centralised state, more globalisation but also more accountability and of course being pro immigration whilst wanting more houses, lower class sizes , whilst keeping our green spaces etc

That said I think they're right to be angry with the status quo. There are serious problems with Society which urgently need to be addedd . The problem is they're doubling down on all the problems.

The West is like a house that's on fire. Centrists/ Liberals are like "oh things are fine. We like our house being on fire" whilst the left are like "the house is on fire, the only way we can put it out is by pouring petrol on it".
Paying taxes hasn't made me more right wing.

When it's so difficult for young people to accumulate capital, then why would they be capitalist?

Wage growth has been either sluggish or non existent while house prices have soared and income inequality has skyrocketed.

It's not contradictory to support a liberal immigration policy and massive investment in housing and public services. Indeed the two go hand in hand.
Last edited by DSilva; 3 weeks ago
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by DSilva)
Paying taxes hasn't made me more right wing.

When it's so difficult for young people to accumulate capital, then why would they be capitalist?

Wage growth has been either sluggish or non existent while house prices have soared and income inequality has skyrocketed.

It's not contradictory to support a liberal immigration policy and massive investment in housing and public services. Indeed the two go hand in hand.
Presumably you have not yet reached your peak earning potential yet. For Instance My father who has always been a socialist (and still is) recently for the first time in his life got a job where he was on a higher tax bracket and although he hasn't changed his political views it did shake him when he realised how much tax he was paying. That's basically my point.

Again we have a mixed economy and will continue to have a mixed economy under the "socialism" advocated by the modern left. If by capitalist you mean support the massively corrupt status quo then no, but then by that logic I'm not a "capitalist" either. The problem isn't "capitalism", it's the status quo and by that I don't just mean the Tories I mean the entire rotten liberal system.

Sure. What's your point?

Surely if we are struggling to build houses for our existing population surely it is madness to bring in more? It's like a parent saying "I can't afford to feed my children - let's have another baby!"

Lastly do you agree with the concept of supply and demand at all?
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Starship Trooper
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I mean it's s cliche to say it but this is just common sense at the end of the day.DSilva

Housing
https://www.insider.com/japan-ghost-...a-banks-2021-6

Wealth inequality
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...n-data-charts/

And Immigration...

Name:  Screenshot_2021-09-24-23-09-26-17_92b64b2a7aa6eb3771ed6e18d0029815.jpg
Views: 4
Size:  102.7 KB

Imagine my shock! :rolleyes:

(And no they don't have a socialist or left wing government...)
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
I mean it's s cliche to say it but this is just common sense at the end of the day.DSilva

Housing
https://www.insider.com/japan-ghost-...a-banks-2021-6

Wealth inequality
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...n-data-charts/

And Immigration...

Name:  Screenshot_2021-09-24-23-09-26-17_92b64b2a7aa6eb3771ed6e18d0029815.jpg
Views: 4
Size:  102.7 KB

Imagine my shock! :rolleyes:

(And no they don't have a socialist or left wing government...)
I learned yesterday that Japan has laws which encourage basic moral codes. For example you could face fines for skipping a queue. As if I didn’t idolise the country enough.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I learned yesterday that Japan has laws which encourage basic moral codes. For example you could face fines for skipping a queue. As if I didn’t idolise the country enough.
God damn weeb

Japan has got it's fair share of problems and shouldn't be idolised. (No country should be idolised) that said Hungary would be s better example of s country to follow...
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Theloniouss
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(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
As for climate change being a specifically capitalist problem (That couldn't and wouldn't have happened under another economic system?! Don't be silly!), that is perhaps the best illustration of the 'capitalism = things I don't like' analysis.
Possibly, unless you interpret the question as meaning "is global warming a problem that has been caused/is being caused primarily by capitalist countries?", in which case the answer is obviously yes.
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TCA2b
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
I mean it's s cliche to say it but this is just common sense at the end of the day.DSilva

Housing
https://www.insider.com/japan-ghost-...a-banks-2021-6

Wealth inequality
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...n-data-charts/

And Immigration...

Name:  Screenshot_2021-09-24-23-09-26-17_92b64b2a7aa6eb3771ed6e18d0029815.jpg
Views: 4
Size:  102.7 KB

Imagine my shock! :rolleyes:

(And no they don't have a socialist or left wing government...)
No question either of them ever being regarded as anything but residents there.
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Saracen's Fez
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(Original post by Theloniouss)
Possibly, unless you interpret the question as meaning "is global warming a problem that has been caused/is being caused primarily by capitalist countries?", in which case the answer is obviously yes.
I mean, OK, though if the question is 'What does your alternative economic system look like where it hasn't spent the last century or two burning large quantities of fossil fuels?' then I don't think there's much of an answer to that – certainly not a system which people would seriously claim they would rather live in. And that's not to mention the environmental record of actual states in the past century that have designated themselves non- or anti-capitalist, of course.

(I suspect you might not completely disagree with me on this in reality, mind.)
Last edited by Saracen's Fez; 3 weeks ago
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Theloniouss
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(Original post by Saracen's Fez)
I mean OK, though if the question is 'What does your economic system look like where it hasn't spent the last century or two burning large quantities of fossil fuels?' then I don't think there's much of an answer to that – certainly not a system which people would seriously claim they would rather live in. And that's not to mention the environmental record of actual states in the past century that have designated themselves non- or anti-capitalist, of course.

(I suspect you might not completely disagree with me on this in reality, mind.)
Of course, hence why the question seems very stupid. Either interpretation seems more-or-less equally valid (obviously depending on the question's specific wording), and either interpretation has a very obvious answer.
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