TSR's Pro-Europe Society

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L i b

How many times will we go over this? The Lisbon Treaty is not the Constitutional Treaty. The Constitutional Treaty was to be put to a referendum not as a result of the (fairly modest) reforms it contained, but because of its constitutional nature - which has been entirely dropped.

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We need to keep going over this as this is very important. Please to not try to suggest that the constitution is clearly very different. Even the man that wrote the EU constitution says that the treaty is pratically the same thing as he wrote!
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/valeacutery-giscard-destaing-the-eu-treaty-is-the-same-as-the-constitution-398286.html

(and let's not forget that this man is as pro-europe as they come! At least he has some honesty!)

But also the British have had a look at this and found that really there is very little difference between treaty and constitution. The Commons European scrutiny committee said that "Taken as a whole, the reform treaty produces a general framework which is substantially equivalent to the constitutional treaty." and it also added that the treaty had been developed in a "secretive" fashion.
http://www.epolitix.com/latestnews/article-detail/newsarticle/eu-treaty-same-as-constitution/

This is not a clear cut issue, but when British Mps think it's pretty much the same and when the man who wrote the constition thinks it is, then it is clear that the EU has not "dropped" the ideas it had.
We were promised a referendum on the constition and this is so similar that we should of had one for this :yep:

Reply 101

Tamora

L i b

I notice you say 'a referendum' - yes, indeed, they proposed that. A referendum on a document which has been rejected.

How many times will we go over this? The Lisbon Treaty is not the Constitutional Treaty. The Constitutional Treaty was to be put to a referendum not as a result of the (fairly modest) reforms it contained, but because of its constitutional nature - which has been entirely dropped.

How many times? Probably for as long as you keep trying to perpetuate the myth that, in what Labour MP Gisela Stuart called a "deeply dishonest process" the Constitution is not the Lisbon Treaty under another name.

Nope. It doesn't change UK constitutional law one iota. As for the practical relationship between EU and national parliaments, it actually strengthens Parliament's position.

The treaty does not mean that any member state may choose not to implement an EU regulation, decision or directive. National parliaments may ask the EU to think again and that's it. Not worth much is it? Democracy buried at the bottom of the bin in fact.

It's fact. Treaties bind states in international law. You've resorted to a logical fallacy here: breaching the law does not make it any less the law. British law is breached countless times every day.

But if we withdrew from the Union, we'd no longer be subject to its laws, and this situation is unprecedented, certainly in the modern era, so the facts would be whatever those involved decided upon.

The Swiss government wants to be in the EU (yes, I'm aware it isn't EEA). Liechtenstein would almost certainly join if Switzerland did. Norway has actively considered it at several junctures, but been defeated marginally in referendums - they'll probably try again some time and Iceland are currently monitoring the situation with a view towards considering membership at a later date.

The Swiss and Norwegian PEOPLE have rejected EU membership more than once despite their political establishments being in favour. Perhaps they will in the future opt for membership, but either way their politicians will not take EU rejection lying down; as you say they are "monitoring the situation ..." It's a pattern we've grown used to - when the EU is rejected in referenda, the people, when they are asked again, get a chance to vote the "right way".

Iceland has never applied for EU membership but its confidence has been understandably shaken by recent events in the banking industry. But you said yourself "the fact that some people do something does not mean it is sensible." It cuts both ways.

Reply 102

Rave92

I've got 72%, anyway why only border between Serbia and Montenegro is not bold? I've joined by the way :P.

Reply 103

L i b

Tamora

The Lisbon Treaty is not 'constitutional' in any sense whatsoever, nor is there any argument for having referendums upon it - it is no different to the other treaties we have ratified through Parliament.

The Constitutional Treaty was constitutional in nature, and that's why a referendum on it was suggested.

Quite the contrary, I believe it is a significant check on the authority of the EU. It is a clear statement about the exercise of authority. Each level is dependent upon the co-operation of the other.

But if we withdrew from the Union, we'd no longer be subject to its laws, and this situation is unprecedented, certainly in the modern era, so the facts would be whatever those involved decided upon.

We are subject to the treaty which empowers its laws and upon whose authority they are based. We cannot lawfully 'withdraw' from this treaty unilaterally.

when the EU is rejected in referenda, the people, when they are asked again, get a chance to vote the "right way".

I don't agree with these referendums in the first place, so I don't really see the need to defend riding roughshod over them, however I will point out that when something is rejected, the EU institutions tend to attempt to allay the concerns of those who voted against it before introducing the measure again - which is exactly what it is attempting to do in the Irish situation at present, and which it successfully did in Ireland following the Nice rejection.

Reply 104

Rave92

I've got 72%, anyway why only border between Serbia and Montenegro is not bold? I've joined by the way :P.

anyway why only border between Serbia and Montenegro is not bold?

Reply 105

Shadowplay

Because it's an old map? :smile:

And don't you dare put a map where Kosovo is it's own country. For it is not :P

Reply 106

Rave92

Shadowplay

Because it's an old map? :smile:

And don't you dare put a map where Kosovo is it's own country. For it is not :P

Haha, well I don't ask for border with Kosovo, but Montenegro. And it was rather rhetorical question :smile:

Reply 107

Joluk

98% correct, bloody Liechtenstein!

Nice to see a Pro-Europe society though, United we stand, Divided we fall.

Nice result.

Joluk

98% correct, bloody Liechtenstein!

Nice to see a Pro-Europe society though, United we stand, Divided we fall.

The bigger they are the harder they fall.

Reply 110

mad-cow-intuition

I got 74% with an average error of 124 miles, not too shabby. :biggrin:

Although I think I will have to refresh myself with the positioning of the smaller countries.

Viva Europa!!!!

I requested to join a while ago. Could you approve me please? :smile:

Reply 113

frankayak

When I saw this group I knew I had to join. My position on Europe is pragmatic and positive. I started off as wary of Europe probably due to the presence of a Daily Mail in my house. As I matured and started to mould my political character I am firmly a liberal believing in the benefits of a Europe which supports it's citizens and facilitates a strong single market.

I was and still am a supporter of the Lisbon Treaty, it's implementation has been a bit of a farce really but nevertheless I support the current structures of the EU and I am a strong supporter of the role of the Parliament and the Council. I believe that Britain's membership must be purposeful and active and the current Government must be seen to be pro-active and approaching European problems from a consensus perspective not a isolationist, tantrum mentality.

I disagree with the current rise in the EU budget however and I do not support a further bailout of Greece (new solution needed). But I remain a fervent supporter of strengthening bilateral relations with all European states however I believe that we should pay extra focus to the Netherlands and France of whom are a sympathizers in our British positions and situation.

Apart from that, I love European culture and am the first on the plane to a European destination when I can! I was thinking we could create a Mock European Council similar to the United Nations that we have on the SR.

I'm in

youre all traitors.

Subscribes.

I am a self-confessed Tory Europhile.

I believe that both the EU and Eurozone need substantial reform however i believe that we have a greater chance of changing the system from the inside rather than the outside in order to allow Europe to fufil l its potential.