NHS Trust limits access to chemotherapy for cancer patients

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username4986690
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(Original post by Megacent)
It feels like your not allowed to criticize the NHS these days, well I'm sorry but I think they do deserve to be criticized for their actions. They were wrong to cancel routine ops and focus only on covid. They talk about saving lives, but think of this. Some people will have cancer that could have been detected earlier if their routine screening hadn't been cancelled. What if some of those people die? What if it was your mum? Would you still think the people who cancelled her screening were heroes?
Which part of not enough staff do you not understand?

They had the choice of cancelling operations or letting COVID patients die. Which would you have picked?
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harrysbar
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(Original post by Megacent)
By the way harrysbar, I am thankful to the individual workers in the NHS for their work. But I still think the dancing videos were completely inappropriate, and to me it felt like they were laughing in our face. Although completely happy to accept I'm in the minority there.
Ok it’s nice to hear you say that you are thankful to individual workers. I didn’t find the dancing videos inappropriate (nor did most people) because we all need a bit of light relief at work whether that’s gossiping in the canteen or doing a silly dance to cheer people up. There is no way NHS staff were laughing in our face, they too would have been frightened of Covid hurting themselves or their families/friends.
You can criticise the NHS - no one should pretend it is perfect- but staff felt they had to prioritise critically ill patients coming into hospital with extreme Covid symptoms such as struggling to breathe unaided. Maybe in hindsight there were too many resources directed at limiting Covid deaths at the expense of other areas of healthcare. But the staff would have been heavily criticised if they had stopped accepting these patients into hospital. There is no easy answer as to who deserves treatment more, a Covid patient or a cancer patient - which is why the public were begged to do what they could to limit Covid cases.
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Megacent
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Which part of not enough staff do you not understand?

They had the choice of cancelling operations or letting COVID patients die. Which would you have picked?
I don't believe what they say about being overwhelmed, so I would want them to keep the routine operations AND treat covid patients.
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Megacent
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(Original post by harrysbar)
Maybe in hindsight there were too many resources directed at limiting Covid deaths at the expense of other areas of healthcare.
I definitely think that's the case. It was like society suddenly decided that covid deaths must be prevented at all costs, even if that meant people dying from other causes. Imagine that your relative has terminal cancer, a cancer that was missed because they cancelled her screening. And you then see videos showing nurses from that hospital dancing around when they were supposedly overwhelmed enough that they had to cancel her appointment. What are you going to think of them? It was completely inappropriate, and conveyed the wrong message.
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harrysbar
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(Original post by Megacent)
I don't believe what they say about being overwhelmed, so I would want them to keep the routine operations AND treat covid patients.
There is really no point anyone trying to reason with you when you just "don't believe" that the NHS could ever be overwhelmed even in a global pandemic where other healthcare systems across the world have similarly reported being overwhelmed or very close to it. You seem determined to see it as a giant conspiracy so that NHS staff can enjoy cancelling treatments and dancing all day because nurses went into a low paid and caring profession to laugh at people.
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username4986690
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(Original post by Megacent)
I don't believe what they say about being overwhelmed, so I would want them to keep the routine operations AND treat covid patients.
You are wrong as doctors have told you but of course they must be lying too. Everyone is lying but you.
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Cancelled Alice
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I don't like the way that the NHS treats some patients neither do I like the attitudes that some people have about the NHS. It needs to be criticised, when criticism is due for the sake of everyone- patients, staff, other public services and those who pay taxes.

However, I don’t think that this decision would have been made lightly or that it is designed to be vindictive or spiteful.

Staffing problems are the result of systemic difficulties, difficulties that individual trusts can’t really do much about.
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black tea
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(Original post by Megacent)
I am thankful for the work nurses do. I just feel the dancing videos were a disgrace, and sent completely the wrong message. I was struggling to cope with lockdown and it felt like they were laughing in my face.
Ever thought that people doing those videos were doing them to help them cope with what they were having to face at work? Hospitals had choirs and dance groups for staff before the lockdown so it wouldn't have taken a huge amount of efforts for people taking part in those to create a dance routine in their breaks or after work. When I was at school, my friends who were dancers could easily come up with a routine in a lunch break.
(Original post by Megacent)
I definitely think that's the case. It was like society suddenly decided that covid deaths must be prevented at all costs, even if that meant people dying from other causes. Imagine that your relative has terminal cancer, a cancer that was missed because they cancelled her screening. And you then see videos showing nurses from that hospital dancing around when they were supposedly overwhelmed enough that they had to cancel her appointment. What are you going to think of them? It was completely inappropriate, and conveyed the wrong message.
I know people whose appointments got delayed because of covid and I still don't think badly of those videos. I know nurses who worked on covid wards at the start of the pandemic and I know how horrific it was for them, so I would only support whatever they chose to do to de-stress.
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Megacent
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
You are wrong as doctors have told you but of course they must be lying too. Everyone is lying but you.
They lied about masks to protect supplies for their own staff, and they lied that we could have 4000 deaths a day if we didn't lock down. That doesn't mean that everything they say a lie, but it means I have to treat anything they say with a fair degree of scepticism now. I personally don't believe NHS workers, I don't think they were as overwhelmed as they claim, but that's just my opinion and I should be entitled to that just as they are entitled to theirs. But these days it seems your not allowed to question the narrative.
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black tea
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(Original post by Megacent)
They lied about masks to protect supplies for their own staff, and they lied that we could have 4000 deaths a day if we didn't lock down. That doesn't mean that everything they say a lie, but it means I have to treat anything they say with a fair degree of scepticism now. I personally don't believe NHS workers, I don't think they were as overwhelmed as they claim, but that's just my opinion and I should be entitled to that just as they are entitled to theirs. But these days it seems your not allowed to question the narrative.
Who are these "they" that you are talking about?
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Megacent
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(Original post by black tea)
Ever thought that people doing those videos were doing them to help them cope with what they were having to face at work? Hospitals had choirs and dance groups for staff before the lockdown so it wouldn't have taken a huge amount of efforts for people taking part in those to create a dance routine in their breaks or after work. When I was at school, my friends who were dancers could easily come up with a routine in a lunch break.

I know people whose appointments got delayed because of covid and I still don't think badly of those videos. I know nurses who worked on covid wards at the start of the pandemic and I know how horrific it was for them, so I would only support whatever they chose to do to de-stress.
I understand why they would do things like that for morale. Completely accept that, don't have a problem with it. My point is how did they find time to do that if they were completely overwhelmed? If they all able to do it on work time then they clearly can't have been that busy. And if they were doing it after work, then they were breaking lockdown because you were only supposed to be out to work and then come home immediately after you finished. It just felt like the public was making all these sacrifices, we were staying at home, and the reality of the situation in the hospitals was quite different to what we were being told. I personally felt like the nurses were mocking us and laughing in our face. I felt quite hurt by it, although I do accept I'm in a very small minority who feels that way. I don't personally dislike individual NHS workers but I thought the videos were extremely inappropriate.
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black tea
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(Original post by Megacent)
I understand why they would do things like that for morale. Completely accept that, don't have a problem with it. My point is how did they find time to do that if they were completely overwhelmed? If they all able to do it on work time then they clearly can't have been that busy. And if they were doing it after work, then they were breaking lockdown because you were only supposed to be out to work and then come home immediately after you finished. It just felt like the public was making all these sacrifices, we were staying at home, and the reality of the situation in the hospitals was quite different to what we were being told. I personally felt like the nurses were mocking us and laughing in our face. I felt quite hurt by it, although I do accept I'm in a very small minority who feels that way. I don't personally dislike individual NHS workers but I thought the videos were extremely inappropriate.
Even when they are overwhelmed, they are still entitled to breaks. Try working through 12 hour shifts with no break and see how long you will last.

Whatever sacrifices the public were making, the staff on the frontline were making more. I know nurses who lived in caravans and hotels for months so they wouldn't take covid home to their families. I get that you found lockdown hard, many people did, but it was still harder for the hospital staff who were having to deal with the emotional impact of watching people die every single day. No one was mocking you, they were simply trying to cope.
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Megacent
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(Original post by black tea)
Who are these "they" that you are talking about?
The Chief Medical Adviser told people not to wear masks at the start of the pandemic

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9374086.html

Once the NHS could be confident they had enough supplies, the narrative conveniently changed to saying that we should wear masks.

And then there was the 4000 deaths a day lie. Models that were quickly debunked with one expert calling them "Noddy Land Figures".


You can argue about the morality of those, especially with the first one. Was Whitty justified in lying to the public, if his aim was to safeguard PPE for the NHS? Maybe. In his position I might have done the same. But it creates a problem with trust. I now know that Whitty and Vallance are willing to mislead the public if they think it's for the greater good. How do I know that's not the case with the vaccine? When they tell me it's safe, how do I know they are telling the truth and not lying for a greater good? Patrick Vallance certainly has a conflict of interest because of his investments in a vaccine manufacturer. My gut feeling is that the vaccine is safe, but they've made it so that you can't sue the companies if you get permanent damage. So if I get the jab I'm on my own if it goes wrong. Can you understand why I want to wait a while before risking it?
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Megacent
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(Original post by black tea)
I know nurses who lived in caravans and hotels for months so they wouldn't take covid home to their families
That's just bizarre tbh. Do they stay in hotels during flu season so they don't bring flu home to their families as well?

They work in a hospital, they must encounter viruses all the time. Are they this terrified of them all, and if so how do they ever get any work done if they are that terrified of contracting anything?
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black tea
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(Original post by Megacent)
The Chief Medical Adviser told people not to wear masks at the start of the pandemic

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9374086.html

Once the NHS could be confident they had enough supplies, the narrative conveniently changed to saying that we should wear masks.

And then there was the 4000 deaths a day lie. Models that were quickly debunked with one expert calling them "Noddy Land Figures".


You can argue about the morality of those, especially with the first one. Was Whitty justified in lying to the public, if his aim was to safeguard PPE for the NHS? Maybe. In his position I might have done the same. But it creates a problem with trust. I now know that Whitty and Vallance are willing to mislead the public if they think it's for the greater good. How do I know that's not the case with the vaccine? When they tell me it's safe, how do I know they are telling the truth and not lying for a greater good? Patrick Vallance certainly has a conflict of interest because of his investments in a vaccine manufacturer. My gut feeling is that the vaccine is safe, but they've made it so that you can't sue the companies if you get permanent damage. So if I get the jab I'm on my own if it goes wrong. Can you understand why I want to wait a while before risking it?
So the Chief Medical Officer extends to all hospital staff, does it? :rolleyes:

The WHO advice on wearing face coverings was exactly the same across the world, and it was not just the UK telling its citizens not to wear masks at the start of the pandemic if you don't recall. Whether that was to protect PPE stocks for hospitals (and, Imo, hospital staff needed it a lot more than the general public sitting at home for 23+ hours a day...) or because of lack of knowledge about the virus we will never know. No one would have stopped you from a wearing a face covering if you chose to do so, though, and anyone with any common sense did so well before it became mandatory. And hospitals did run out of PPE, by the way - health workers were having to wash single use face masks and to make aprons out of bin bags in some hospital. I can confirm that I know people in hospitals down south doing this.

As for predicting deaths, did you ever consider that it is entirely impossible to accurately predict the death rate from a novel virus? Do you reckon you could have done a better job with the limited information available? And we will never know what the death figures would have been like if the first lockdown hadn't happened. Did you know it entirely eradicated the first variant of the covid virus that we had in the UK?

I don't really care whether you get the vaccine or not, that is entirely your choice and has no impact on me. Just remember that it was your choice not to get vaccinated if you, God forbid, get covid and end up in an ITU bed.
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black tea
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(Original post by Megacent)
That's just bizarre tbh. Do they stay in hotels during flu season so they don't bring flu home to their families as well?

They work in a hospital, they must encounter viruses all the time. Are they this terrified of them all, and if so how do they ever get any work done if they are that terrified of contracting anything?
How is it bizarre? All we knew about the virus at that time was the footage coming from China, which wasn't exactly reassuring. People were terrified.
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username4986690
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(Original post by Megacent)
They lied about masks to protect supplies for their own staff, and they lied that we could have 4000 deaths a day if we didn't lock down. That doesn't mean that everything they say a lie, but it means I have to treat anything they say with a fair degree of scepticism now. I personally don't believe NHS workers, I don't think they were as overwhelmed as they claim, but that's just my opinion and I should be entitled to that just as they are entitled to theirs. But these days it seems your not allowed to question the narrative.
Show me evidence that NHS staff lied about masks or statistics.

Your opinion is wrong, you are entitled to be wrong.

How are you "not allowed" since that is all you ever do?
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Megacent
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(Original post by black tea)
How is it bizarre? All we knew about the virus at that time was the footage coming from China, which wasn't exactly reassuring. People were terrified.
People were terrified because the scientists were intentionally fearmongering. It is openly documented that they plotted how best to ramp up the fear because people "still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened". Have a look for yourself.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ying-home.html

(Original post by black tea)
Do you reckon you could have done a better job with the limited information available? And we will never know what the death figures would have been like if the first lockdown hadn't happened. Did you know it entirely eradicated the first variant of the covid virus that we had in the UK?

I don't really care whether you get the vaccine or not, that is entirely your choice and has no impact on me. Just remember that it was your choice not to get vaccinated if you, God forbid, get covid and end up in an ITU bed.
If they had made a genuine prediction or best guess at the amount of deaths and ended up being wrong, that would be fine. If a weather forecaster has data suggesting it will rain tomorrow, they tell us they think it will rain tomorrow, but it turns out to be sunny tomorrow, that's fine. Although they got it wrong, they did their best to predict what would happen based on the data available to them. Not got a problem with that. But I do have a problem if the forecaster lies about what the data says. If their data says it will be sunny tomorrow, but they tell us the data is predicting rain, that's not ok.

Whitty and Vallance claimed that the data showed we could have 4000 deaths a day if we didn't lock down. It didn't. That model was based on outdated numbers, numbers which had since come down. They ignored the most recent data, I suspect to intentionally frighten us with such a high number and encourage compliance with another lockdown. At best they were misleading the public, at worst they were outright lying. When people have lied to me, I can't even consider trusting them again until they acknowledge they lied and apologize unreservedly for that. But as far as I can remember, all Whitty and Vallance have done is some kind of half hearted "sorry not sorry" at the parliamentary committee. Can't remember exactly what they said, it was a while ago. They may have apologized since then and I missed it, but I don't believe so.

I could get covid and end up in hospital. Statistically it's very unlikely though. I think people need to face reality and accept that we'll all get this virus at some point. You have probably caught lots of viruses before, I bet you've had colds and flus in the last few years and you've managed fine. Why are you so scared of this virus? The level fearmongering really is incredible.
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black tea
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(Original post by Megacent)
People were terrified because the scientists were intentionally fearmongering. It is openly documented that they plotted how best to ramp up the fear because people "still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened". Have a look for yourself.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ying-home.html



If they had made a genuine prediction or best guess at the amount of deaths and ended up being wrong, that would be fine. If a weather forecaster has data suggesting it will rain tomorrow, they tell us they think it will rain tomorrow, but it turns out to be sunny tomorrow, that's fine. Although they got it wrong, they did their best to predict what would happen based on the data available to them. Not got a problem with that. But I do have a problem if the forecaster lies about what the data says. If their data says it will be sunny tomorrow, but they tell us the data is predicting rain, that's not ok.

Whitty and Vallance claimed that the data showed we could have 4000 deaths a day if we didn't lock down. It didn't. That model was based on outdated numbers, numbers which had since come down. They ignored the most recent data, I suspect to intentionally frighten us with such a high number and encourage compliance with another lockdown.

Yes I could get covid and end up in hospital. Statistically it's very unlikely though. I think people need to face reality and accept that we'll all get this virus at some point. You have probably caught lots of viruses before, I bet you've had colds and flus in the last few years and you've managed fine. Why are you so scared of this virus? The amount of fearmongering really is a disgrace.
Sorry, I don't see the Daily Mail as a credible source of information.

What made you think I am scared of Covid? I am not. I am very realistic about it but I am also sensible and follow hygiene precautions, just like I did before the pandemic.
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Megacent
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(Original post by black tea)
What made you think I am scared of Covid?
All this "you might catch it and end up in intensive care" talk. Although technically true, you are being rather dramatic. Do you tell people they could catch the flu and end up in intensive care as well? People have gone mental about a bloody virus, enough is enough, let's just get on with our lives ffs.
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