U.K. to offer emergency visas to HGV drivers.

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ThomH97
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#21
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(Original post by hotpud)
Ouch? You mean like the government forces companies to employ staff and pay over the going rate in wages? No thank you.

What has happened here is companies have relied on being able to recruit drivers from the whole of Europe, then all of a sudden some decided we don't want foreigners driving British trucks and surprise surprise, there aren't enough truck drivers because all the Europeans have gone home. This isn't really the making of the government although I suppose you can blame Boris for backing the winning side (he used to be staunchly pro European). I blame all the little Islanders who voted Brexit. They have made our bed. We must all now lie in it. And this is just the start. Christmas is going to be a disaster!
Perhaps you should read my whole post before putting words in my mouth. As you're very aware, you've chopped off part of the second sentence you've quoted.

This visa system is a helping hand from the government, the transport industry is not entitled to it. I would like the government to require a company to contribute to the long term solution by training new drivers if they wish to benefit from the short term solution of these visas. The government could facilitate this training as well, but my main point was that I would like the transport sector to be solving its own problems in the long term rather than complaining nobody's trained the drivers when they're not doing it themselves.
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hotpud
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(Original post by ThomH97)
Perhaps you should read my whole post before putting words in my mouth. As you're very aware, you've chopped off part of the second sentence you've quoted.

This visa system is a helping hand from the government, the transport industry is not entitled to it. I would like the government to require a company to contribute to the long term solution by training new drivers if they wish to benefit from the short term solution of these visas. The government could facilitate this training as well, but my main point was that I would like the transport sector to be solving its own problems in the long term rather than complaining nobody's trained the drivers when they're not doing it themselves.
Fair enough. I believe most companies are doing this. But at the same time, if you are a smaller company training costs will have to make business sense. If your margins are small and training is £5k+ per new employee that can be quite a lot of outlay that won't be paid back for a while. We had a fabulous open market of employment. That has been sliced such that we keep around 12% of that market and the rest is out of bounds.

What will your answer be next year when there simply are not enough people in the UK to fulfil the job requirements our economy has grown to expect? Unemployment in the UK has been hovering at or around record lows for a while now. Where are all these hundreds of thousands of workers going to come from?
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ThomH97
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(Original post by hotpud)
Fair enough. I believe most companies are doing this. But at the same time, if you are a smaller company training costs will have to make business sense. If your margins are small and training is £5k+ per new employee that can be quite a lot of outlay that won't be paid back for a while. We had a fabulous open market of employment. That has been sliced such that we keep around 12% of that market and the rest is out of bounds.

What will your answer be next year when there simply are not enough people in the UK to fulfil the job requirements our economy has grown to expect? Unemployment in the UK has been hovering at or around record lows for a while now. Where are all these hundreds of thousands of workers going to come from?
If they're a viable smaller company and need drivers to function, the business case makes itself. That £5k+ per employee will apply to their competitors too, so while they may need to increase prices, so will their competition. This excuse to poach rather than train isn't restricted to the transport sector, and I wish the government would intervene more here, especially as we're looking at another surge of young adults facing huge challenges getting into work, similar to the 2008 crash.

My answer next year, if the transport sector hasn't got its act together, will be the same but with far less sympathy. They will have had a year to make the job more appealing (for example, higher pay, less 15 hour days, less tramping etc) and train up applicants.
Last edited by ThomH97; 3 weeks ago
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Napp
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Can't we get the military to do it? There must be HGV drivers in there and we aren't fighting any wars so it will give them something to do.
A less charitable person than i would call that a gross misuse of the armed forces. However, as no one else seems capable, from the VLA upwards to do something as simple as get drivers in it would seem the only option left. Although mildly interesting that 1 half of government is saying its a go and the other is fervently denying it as if its an issue of great import :lol:
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hotpud
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(Original post by ThomH97)
If they're a viable smaller company and need drivers to function, the business case makes itself. That £5k+ per employee will apply to their competitors too, so while they may need to increase prices, so will their competition. This excuse to poach rather than train isn't restricted to the transport sector, and I wish the government would intervene more here, especially as we're looking at another surge of young adults facing huge challenges getting into work, similar to the 2008 crash.

My answer next year, if the transport sector hasn't got its act together, will be the same but with far less sympathy. They will have had a year to make the job more appealing (for example, higher pay, less 15 hour days, less tramping etc) and train up applicants.
You are quite correct. But we have basically gone from a place where there is an open market of candidates to none and you are right, things will catch up eventually assuming there are sufficient British candidates. As a consumer I look forward to paying for their training through higher prices. I suppose that is progress?
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ThomH97
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(Original post by hotpud)
You are quite correct. But we have basically gone from a place where there is an open market of candidates to none and you are right, things will catch up eventually assuming there are sufficient British candidates. As a consumer I look forward to paying for their training through higher prices. I suppose that is progress?
Someone else in the EU was paying for their training before with higher prices. While such 'brain drain' has indeed been beneficial to us in some ways, it has also left our youth struggling to compete against more experienced workers. Higher prices is a trade-off, but on the whole, one I'm happy to make provided the government push it through properly. At least we would be investing in our youth's (and other unemployed people's) employability in a concrete way
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brjf
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Surely we should also be lambasting the British public for creating these shortages through panic buying?
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username4986690
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(Original post by Napp)
A less charitable person than i would call that a gross misuse of the armed forces. However, as no one else seems capable, from the VLA upwards to do something as simple as get drivers in it would seem the only option left. Although mildly interesting that 1 half of government is saying its a go and the other is fervently denying it as if its an issue of great import :lol:
What else are our military actually doing right now, shining their sprockets? Better giving them something useful and productive to do with their time.
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Napp
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
What else are our military actually doing right now, shining their sprockets? Better giving them something useful and productive to do with their time.
Indeed, although that shoe shining is extremely important.. nevermind teaching the newbies not to ticktock.
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username4986690
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(Original post by Napp)
Indeed, although that shoe shining is extremely important.. nevermind teaching the newbies not to ticktock.
If there is a sprocket on your shoe then you may well be a tank :lol:
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Napp
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
If there is a sprocket on your shoe then you may well be a tank :lol:
Oh, i was trying to hide by ignorance of mechanics there
I could well identify as a tanksexual though, its extremely rude of you to dismiss this
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username4986690
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(Original post by Napp)
Oh, i was trying to hide by ignorance of mechanics there
I could well identify as a tanksexual though, its extremely rude of you to dismiss this
The sprocket is what drives the tracks.
All power to you, I assume you are a Bob Semple.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Brexit in 2016: these foreigners are coming over stealing our jobs. We don’t need them. Let’s make Britain british again.

2021: come back, we need you!

No one saw this coming. Oh wait…

Sunlit uplands indeed.
A poor solution. So far we have seen very few meaningful impacts in any sector bar fuel and even then very limited (this is not the 2000 fuel crisis and firms like Shell and Sainsburys are fully stocked apparently). Even the recent food headlines are a small minority of items, I've had almost no issues with my shopping.

I'm open to a few emergency 12 month visas in the fuel sector to alleviate the idiocy of those panic buying when there's no meaningful shortage but nothing more.

We should not be rewarding firms importing cheap foreign labour at the expense of those training our own.

There are many arguments against Brexit, I don't actually count this as one of them.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by hotpud)
The sceptic in me can't help but think that saying it is a long standing problem is a convenient excuse for what really isn't a long standing problem. I don't seem to remember people queuing up to get petrol or shop shelves being empty 1, 2 or three+ years ago. Surely a long running problem doesn't suddenly happen?
(Original post by DSilva)
No matter what happens and how many promises are broken, Brexit's biggest advocates will never admit they were wrong. They'll blame something else or say the problem was that we didn't Brexit earlier.
Small issue for you both - that paragon of right wingers the Guardian suggests its mainly not Brexit.

Apparently although we have lost 15,000 Europeans the main issue is that Covid caused the cancellation of 40,000 tests (about 25,000 would have passed). There are 90,000 vacancies which is more than those lost by both.

That does suggest that actually while Brexit has played it's part (though actually visas are not a massive issue, it's just less beaurocratic to stay in Europe given the additional paperwork involved), Covid has played a majority part and that should resolve itself over time.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by londonmyst)
Such a lamentable lack of basic brexit planning for no deal that should have been done during the eras of David Cameron and Theresa May. :banghead:

Not just in relation to lorry drivers.
Also for fruit pickers to work on small farms for a few weeks, agricultural workers, factory staff, care workers, bakers, cafe and hotel staff.
There are so many jobless and under-employed uk citizens aged 16-45 who are very keen to increase their income by obtaining some seasonal work or access to a short term work contract of between 1-18 months that includes the opportunities to gain some employment history & earn while training.
May did do a lot of no deal planning, at least in agriculture. The problem there is not a lack of visas (same with transport) but rather the fact that paperwork is required at all (and the time delay waiting) provides a much larger incentive to stay on the continent.
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hotpud
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(Original post by ThomH97)
Someone else in the EU was paying for their training before with higher prices. While such 'brain drain' has indeed been beneficial to us in some ways, it has also left our youth struggling to compete against more experienced workers. Higher prices is a trade-off, but on the whole, one I'm happy to make provided the government push it through properly. At least we would be investing in our youth's (and other unemployed people's) employability in a concrete way
Not quite. We used to have lots of students head over to the Netherlands to take advantage of the cheaper uni fees. This avenue is now closed. The point is, you can't identify a single thing. The EU presented opportunities most Brits were not prepared to take. Similarly, the current glut of job vacancies presents additional opportunities no doubt many will shy away from. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years time this is still an issue and if it is not, we will all be paying the price literally in the form of higher food and goods prices. The days of £200 40" TVs and chicken dinner twice a week for some are coming to an end.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Small issue for you both - that paragon of right wingers the Guardian suggests its mainly not Brexit.

Apparently although we have lost 15,000 Europeans the main issue is that Covid caused the cancellation of 40,000 tests (about 25,000 would have passed). There are 90,000 vacancies which is more than those lost by both.

That does suggest that actually while Brexit has played it's part (though actually visas are not a massive issue, it's just less beaurocratic to stay in Europe given the additional paperwork involved), Covid has played a majority part and that should resolve itself over time.
These numbers are indeed correct (ish) as published by the Road Haulage Association. However, they have been debunked to an extent on More or Less
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09tpk7c (11:30 onwards).

The ONS have published data that suggest around 19,000 EU drivers moved back to the EU. The 25,000 test passes is also correct although it is wrong to assume everyone passing their test would have gone on to get a job in the industry. Finally, the main bulk of your 100,000 figure includes 60,000 missing drivers in 2019. This figure was apparently 50,000 in 2015 way before Brexit so it does beg the question as to why the RHA has been unable to solve this problem in the last 7 years. The RHA have also been unable to show how they calculated this figure so I think it fair to assume it has a political element.

What we do know is that between 2019 and now, 19,000 EU drivers left and some part of 25,000 drivers didn't pass their test and go into the industry.
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Rakas21
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I thought that Hermit and co would be interested to know that shortages caused by a lack of drivers are now being reported in Ireland, Belgium and France. Indeed Belgium has joined us with some food interruption.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DSilva)
No matter what happens and how many promises are broken, Brexit's biggest advocates will never admit they were wrong. They'll blame something else or say the problem was that we didn't Brexit earlier.
How was we wrong?
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Talkative Toad
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
How was we wrong?
By denying the fact that Brexit would lead to shortages and that us "remoaners" were doing "project fear". We were being told that this was project fear by pro-brexiteers, this ain't project fear (the fact that we warned brexiteers about there would most like be shortages due to Brexit) shortages mate, this is project reality as I saw a comment on YouTube say. In short you were wrong about the idea that brexit would no lead to shortages and that brits would easily be able to fill up the jobs of those EU immagrants. We have shortages, brits are not applying en masse for the jobs that EU and EEA immigrants were doing.
Last edited by Talkative Toad; 2 weeks ago
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