U.K. to offer emergency visas to HGV drivers.

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hotpud
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(Original post by Talkative Toad)
True but the food doesn't need to be a fancy turkey is what I'm trying to say , just need to be good food that everyone likes can be pastry, chicken, salmon or whatever (coming from a picky eater). Hopefully we can get Turkeys for Christmas but for me that's not something I necessarily care about.
I agree. But tradition is tradition for some.
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I agree. But tradition is tradition for some.
Yeah.
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(Original post by Talkative Toad)
It's the fault of both. Brexit has lead to EU drivers leaving the country, The government as londonmyst said planned poorly. If you can't understand the simple fact that Brexit was one (not the only reason) for the Shortages then that's on you.
What you are saying there is.

"My interference with your conversation with DSilva where I'm asking why brexiteers (as a group) were wrong for beliving in a life outside the EU and why they can't blame something else. I'm wrong in this post below;
(Original post by Talkative Toad)
By denying the fact that Brexit would lead to shortages and that us "remoaners" were doing "project fear". We were being told that this was project fear by pro-brexiteers, this ain't project fear (the fact that we warned brexiteers about there would most like be shortages due to Brexit) shortages mate, this is project reality as I saw a comment on YouTube say. In short you were wrong about the idea that brexit would no lead to shortages and that brits would easily be able to fill up the jobs of those EU immagrants. We have shortages, brits are not applying en masse for the jobs that EU and EEA immigrants were doing.
Where I imply brexit is solely to blame but I cannot admit I'm wrong so I'm backpedding and trying to move the goalposts." The conversation was about the anchoring the blame at brexits feet, which is incorrect

(Original post by Talkative Toad)
Clearly explained how you are wrong can highlight in bold if you want. Saying that the shortages have nothing to do with Brexit is where you're wrong
No you haven't! Stop moving the goalposts Where have I even said the shortages have nothing to do with Brexit? BTW they don't, as its perfectly possible to brexit and not enforce the same immigration laws as the UK government have! But that's besides the point, its just another point you're wrong on! Back to point, the conversation is why was brexiteers are wrong for believing in a life outside the EU and anchoring the blame for HGV drivers shortage squarely at brexits feet, a subject even you now reluctantly admit is not true.
(Original post by Talkative Toad)
Brexit along with the other reasons you Brexiteers are pointing out have lead to shortages. .
Again how? Our sovereign government can do what it wishes, now the superiority of the EU has been removed. Our government decided to make rules which made some HGV drivers leave.

(Original post by Talkative Toad)
Can plug your ears all you want and put the full blame on the UK government's response
How lovely and condescending, not like a eurofile at all :rolleyes:

There is only one person here with their ears plugged and it isn't me! So an example to help you understand - joining the EEC helped close many automotive factories in the Midlands, this is true as we didn't have power to change this, but we can brexit however we wish.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Talkative Toad)
I'm not looking for a simple solution? It's called looking at reality, British people are not applying to the jobs EU immigrants had en masse as imlikeahermit is saying because the working conditions are crap, wages are too low maybe a touch of laziness too but not quite sure that I agree with that last reason, hence the Government is trying to do temporary EU visas. The government can't admit that they've failed when I comes to everything, they are failures but just don't want to admit it.
So we are wrong you wanting to better ourselves then, we should just accept working conditions are crap, wages are too low, etc. After all the EU knows best right?

I find it amazing how its gone full circle regarding brexit woth socialists like DSilva effectively arguing for a Tory style free market where millionaires play soggy biscuits , keep the status quo of low wages, poor working conditions etc and the tories now trying to improve pay and conditions!
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Talkative Toad)
Even if no one starved to death some people can't afford the new food prices, so out of touch with reality some people are. Also public transport in this country is a scam (use it nearly every day and it's overpriced), I like using public transport but I wouldn't use it if you can avoid it and some areas (not mine because for me it's very good) have crap public transport links.

My life is also no worse now that we've left other than no free movement and international fees but silly to say that the shortages are minor, just because you and I have not been severely affected but them or that no one has "starved", some people have been affected severely, whether that's Traffic as a result of people being idiots and panic buying, workers and HGV drivers not being able to get to work, people not being able to afford to pay for their bills and food as a result of the increase in costs to buy Gas and Food. Good on you mate if you're like me and have not suffered but some have in a non-"minor" way and you need to acknowledge that. For some it's been minor, for some it has not.
Almost all of what you say above is due to the current obsession with free market Capitism and right wing economic policy! Which brings me too;

(Original post by hotpud)
I couldn't agree more. And what is the centre piece of spending quality time with loved ones? Sharing food together. It is about the most human activity you can get. The thought of not being able to do that at Christmas is quite upsetting to a lot of people and they are rightly concerned.
Since being in your beloved EU, more and more (disproportionately poorer people in low paid jobs) have had to work over Xmas as you fight to keep the old wonderful EU status quo and keep this neoliberal "cEnTeR ground" of benefits for the well off.

It's no wonder the elite can shift blame to the "liberal elite" - AKA the middle classes - with how snobby, self serving and devoid of reality you have become.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Since being in your beloved EU, more and more (disproportionately poorer people in low paid jobs) have had to work over Xmas as you fight to keep the old wonderful EU status quo and keep this neoliberal "cEnTeR ground" of benefits for the well off.

It's no wonder the elite can shift blame to the "liberal elite" - AKA the middle classes - with how snobby, self serving and devoid of reality you have become.
Not really sure what your point is. I have worked over Xmas plenty of times thank you. I'm not really sure how that is the fault of the middle class. What are all these Xmas workers doing?

But hey - if all those businesses run by your much hated middle class elite go to the wall because they can't employ any workers or because they can't get in their supplies, well hey - that is better for everyone right? Bring back the glory days of the 70s and a three day week and power cuts you seem to be saying?
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(Original post by hotpud)
Not really sure what your point is. I have worked over Xmas plenty of times thank you. I'm not really sure how that is the fault of the middle class. What are all these Xmas workers doing?.
So why are you crying people can't spend time together at Xmas?

It's the system you wish to keep that is causing this, not mine.

I would regulate Sunday as a day of rest as it used to be, all work would be optional and it that meant you have to buy two pints of milk on Saturday to get through Sunday that's what it means. And when servies close, people might have to talk to eachother again and recreate the social networks and local communities that the right have bust down - again disproportionately effecting the poor areas of the country.


(Original post by hotpud)
But hey - if all those businesses run by your much hated middle class elite go to the wall because they can't employ any workers or because they can't get in their supplies, well hey - that is better for everyone right? Bring back the glory days of the 70s and a three day week and power cuts you seem to be saying?
Nice rant, showing your true colours there, your "care for the poor mask" slipped. So typical of your ilk for any challenge to the current right leaning political status quo to be dismissed with strawman arguments revolving around the time frame when the unions bit the hand that fed them in the 70's. However I'd bet you wasn't even swimming in your fathers testicle in the 80's never mind the 70's!

Democratic socialism, large tight communities and high taxation are the only systems that have lifted all out of poverty in the UK. All your beloved system has done is look after one group at the expense of the poorest and most vunerable.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
So why are you crying people can't spend time together at Xmas?
Where did I say that?

[quote=Burton Bridge;95994935]
It's the system you wish to keep that is causing this, not mine.

I would regulate Sunday as a day of rest as it used to be, all work would be optional and it that meant you have to buy two pints of milk on Saturday to get through Sunday that's what it means. And when servies close, people might have to talk to eachother again and recreate the social networks and local communities that the right have bust down - again disproportionately effecting the poor areas of the country.

I agree. I love the idea of not working on Sundays. But it is the system that has been created as a result of what people want. People want to go shopping on Sundays and as a result, businesses have set their opening hours to satisfy that need. Closing on Sundays is also a very Christian idea. For Muslims the day of rest is Friday and for Jews the Sabbath is a Saturday. Why not close on those days instead?

This isn't about me getting what I want or you getting what you want. The system simply serves the needs of those who make a demand on it. Remember the long forgotten days when your local chippy closed at 5.30pm? It wasn't Eurocrats that dictated they now have to stay open 24/7. Is is the fact that people are prepared to buy fish and chips at 3am and there is money to be made by staying open.

Boris Johnson's high wage economy idea is a complete myth. All that will happen is prices will rise in line with wages so no one will be any better off. Either that or he is trying to pay off the debt through inflation.
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(Original post by hotpud)
Where did I say that?.
Here

(Original post by hotpud)
I couldn't agree more. And what is the centre piece of spending quality time with loved ones? Sharing food together. It is about the most human activity you can get. The thought of not being able to do that at Christmas is quite upsetting to a lot of people and they are rightly concerned.
(Original post by hotpud)
I agree. I love the idea of not working on Sundays. But it is the system that has been created as a result of what people want. People want to go shopping on Sundays and as a result, businesses have set their opening hours to satisfy that need. Closing on Sundays is also a very Christian idea. For Muslims the day of rest is Friday and for Jews the Sabbath is a Saturday. Why not close on those days instead?
Quit with the indenity politics for just one thread, FFS! Make Wednesday a day of rest for all I care, the importance os it happens not who's God won, who's oppressed and who's being oppressed! :mad:

It's a system that been created to benefit those above in social class, that is why the only people who are a beneficial of the system you support are the wealthy at the expense of the poor. The most deprived areas of the country are infinitely worse now than they was during the period of time you referred to (or implied) as the bad old days, just out of slight out of mind - eh?

(Original post by hotpud)
This isn't about me getting what I want or you getting what you want. The system simply serves the needs of those who make a demand on it.
Thats interesting but does not hold water, if you were to ask people what they want, I'd bet none would say we want;

- low wages
- 24/7 availability of everything
- 7 day working for zero benefits
- 0 hour contracts
- being against your neighbours
- replace rent with mortgage
- less financial safety nets
- etc.

But that's what they have been led towards.

(Original post by hotpud)
Boris Johnson's high wage economy idea is a complete myth. All that will happen is prices will rise in line with wages so no one will be any better off. Either that or he is trying to pay off the debt through inflation.
[/quote]

So is everything in this unicorn land of fairies and rainbows. You can't have a high public service, low taxation economy with low regulations and high wages and working conditions.

Your middle ground political system is a unicorn
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by hotpud)

I agree. I love the idea of not working on Sundays
. But it is the system that has been created as a result of what people want. People want to go shopping on Sundays and as a result, businesses have set their opening hours to satisfy that need.

Closing on Sundays is also a very Christian idea. For Muslims the day of rest is Friday and for Jews the Sabbath is a Saturday. Why not close on those days instead?

This isn't about me getting what I want or you getting what you want. The system simply serves the needs of those who make a demand on it.
Remember the long forgotten days when your local chippy closed at 5.30pm? It wasn't Eurocrats that dictated they now have to stay open 24/7. Is is the fact that people are prepared to buy fish and chips at 3am and there is money to be made by staying open

Boris Johnson's high wage economy idea is a complete myth. All that will happen is prices will rise in line with wages so no one will be any better off. Either that or he is trying to pay off the debt through inflation.
So much to get into on this point.

Firstly we have traditionally had Sundays off because the UK is a defacto Christian country and that is still the dominant religion. Saudi Arabia and Israel can have their own days off if they do desire.

Secondly I think you've let the cat slip out of the bag. It's not so much about what people "want" Is it? It's about fulfilling some market demand.

(Original post by Burton Bridge)
At first I was like...

Quit with the indenity politics for just one thread, FFS! ...

But then...

It's a system that been created to benefit those above in social class, that is why the only people who are a beneficial of the system you support are the wealthy at the expense of the poor.

Class politics are still identity politics. It's not so much the 1% that are the problem but the 0.0000000001% that are part of the problem (Zuckerberg, Bezos, Gates, etc)

See above in bold


Thats interesting but does not hold water, if you were to ask people what they want, I'd bet none would say we want;

- low wages
- 24/7 availability of everything
- 7 day working for zero benefits
- 0 hour contracts
- being against your neighbours
- less financial safety nets
- etc.
But that's what they have been led towards.
I strongly agree with the basic premise of your claim and this is mainly the reason why I'm not an Austrian Economics wise (I agree with them on 90% else)

but I disagree with some of your examples. I know lots of people myself included who benefitted from a zero hour contract and 24/7 hour service is I imagine very popular- being able to buy stuff at Amazon first thing in the morning for next day delivery or getting a cheeseburger at 11PM are very helpful for people with busy lives...

TCA2b thoughts?
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hotpud
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Here





Quit with the indenity politics for just one thread, FFS! Make Wednesday a day of rest for all I care, the importance os it happens not who's God won, who's oppressed and who's being oppressed! :mad:

It's a system that been created to benefit those above in social class, that is why the only people who are a beneficial of the system you support are the wealthy at the expense of the poor. The most deprived areas of the country are infinitely worse now than they was during the period of time you referred to (or implied) as the bad old days, just out of slight out of mind - eh?



Thats interesting but does not hold water, if you were to ask people what they want, I'd bet none would say we want;

- low wages
- 24/7 availability of everything
- 7 day working for zero benefits
- 0 hour contracts
- being against your neighbours
- replace rent with mortgage
- less financial safety nets
- etc.

But that's what they have been led towards.


So is everything in this unicorn land of fairies and rainbows. You can't have a high public service, low taxation economy with low regulations and high wages and working conditions.

Your middle ground political system is a unicorn
You sound very bitter. But you also seem intelligent. What is stopping you setting up a profitable business and then helping out the working classes yourself? You could pay fork lift drivers £40k and receptionists £50k in your company. If you don't like something, change it. Don't sit whinging on here doing nothing.

If there is one thing I can guarantee it is that no government is going to solve all of your problems. Maybe you have to solve some of them for yourself?
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Talkative Toad
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Almost all of what you say above is due to the current obsession with free market Capitism and right wing economic policy! Which brings me too;


Since being in your beloved EU, more and more (disproportionately poorer people in low paid jobs) have had to work over Xmas as you fight to keep the old wonderful EU status quo and keep this neoliberal "cEnTeR ground" of benefits for the well off.

It's no wonder the elite can shift blame to the "liberal elite" - AKA the middle classes - with how snobby, self serving and devoid of reality you have become.
You do know that name calling get's you nowhere so I don't think that namecalling hotpud is useful and I'm sure that 04MR17 can agree. Mate we have shortages due to Brexit AND the reasons that you've listed, I don't know what about that is so hard to understand. If I can understand this then there's nothing stopping you from doing the same (same thing goes to remainers who want to deny the fact that COVID and other factors besides Brexit had anything to do with the shortages). We get it you don't like the EU and are having to resort to name-calling whenever people try to explain to you why we're worst off or why there are shortages.
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
What you are saying there is.

"My interference with your conversation with DSilva where I'm asking why brexiteers (as a group) were wrong for beliving in a life outside the EU and why they can't blame something else. I'm wrong in this post below;


Where I imply brexit is solely to blame but I cannot admit I'm wrong so I'm backpedding and trying to move the goalposts." The conversation was about the anchoring the blame at brexits feet, which is incorrect



No you haven't! Stop moving the goalposts Where have I even said the shortages have nothing to do with Brexit? BTW they don't, as its perfectly possible to brexit and not enforce the same immigration laws as the UK government have! But that's besides the point, its just another point you're wrong on! Back to point, the conversation is why was brexiteers are wrong for believing in a life outside the EU and anchoring the blame for HGV drivers shortage squarely at brexits feet, a subject even you now reluctantly admit is not true.


Again how? Our sovereign government can do what it wishes, now the superiority of the EU has been removed. Our government decided to make rules which made some HGV drivers leave.



How lovely and condescending, not like a eurofile at all :rolleyes:

There is only one person here with their ears plugged and it isn't me! So an example to help you understand - joining the EEC helped close many automotive factories in the Midlands, this is true as we didn't have power to change this, but we can brexit however we wish.
Is what Brexiteers are saying (not specifically you) that the shortages have nothing to do with Brexit which is false you said where have we been wrong, Brexiteers as a whole (not necessarily you) are trying to deny the fact that Brexit has anything to do with the shortages.

(Original post by hotpud)
You sound very bitter. But you also seem intelligent. What is stopping you setting up a profitable business and then helping out the working classes yourself? You could pay fork lift drivers £40k and receptionists £50k in your company. If you don't like something, change it. Don't sit whinging on here doing nothing.

If there is one thing I can guarantee it is that no government is going to solve all of your problems. Maybe you have to solve some of them for yourself?
Agreed. Don't see why he has to resort to name-calling when no other Brexiteer in this thread has done it. Even Starship Trooper has managed to put forward his thoughts in a respectful manner (even if I disagree with him on almost everything) so I don't see what is stopping Burton from doing the same.
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
So we are wrong you wanting to better ourselves then, we should just accept working conditions are crap, wages are too low, etc. After all the EU knows best right?

I find it amazing how its gone full circle regarding brexit woth socialists like DSilva effectively arguing for a Tory style free market where millionaires play soggy biscuits , keep the status quo of low wages, poor working conditions etc and the tories now trying to improve pay and conditions!
No you should fight for them but I don't see how leaving the EU and having a crap government does that (unless you can show stats on how the UK is better off financially and how the poor on average will be better).

I'll criticise the EU too when needed, for example their vaccine roll out in the beginning was rubbish so nice try if you think that I'll never criticise the EU when they fail. This government doesn't care about the poor regardless of whether we're in the EU or not, they've never cared about them hence why my relative as getting off of her backside and fighting for the poor to get a better education, they say screw this government, if they can't support the poor then I will.

Making an actual change rather than complaining online (more that I want to say but I'd rather not say it as it adds nothing useful to the discussion). You want the poor to be better off? Fight for their rights, make a change, volunteer, donate etc. If you don't already do that, if you already do that then that's great and big respects to you. Don't wait on the government (especially the Tories) to fix the issue because they won't, they don't care about the poor, they only care about themselves, their "sovereignty" and making sure that there mate's pockets are full with money. This is the worst government in recent history probably, what an earth makes some people (not you but some) think that they deep down truly care about the poor?

Complaining online and bashing the middle class isn't going to do that, the poor will still be poor, they will still be more likely to get a worse off education, they will still be less likely to own a home as they will have to resort to renting as hotpud rightfully says. Sorry for going off topic. You seem have a bitter irrational hatred for the middle class which is just as bad as hating the working class. So I would fix that attitude, speak in a respectful manner to other users before even attempting to criticise them, like every other user in this thread has managed to do. Name calling in a discussion gets you nowhere (applies to users on both sides and that includes the OP).
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
So much to get into on this point.

Firstly we have traditionally had Sundays off because the UK is a defacto Christian country and that is still the dominant religion. Saudi Arabia and Israel can have their own days off if they do desire.

Secondly I think you've let the cat slip out of the bag. It's not so much about what people "want" Is it? It's about fulfilling some market demand.


See above in bold




I strongly agree with the basic premise of your claim and this is mainly the reason why I'm not an Austrian Economics wise (I agree with them on 90% else)

but I disagree with some of your examples. I know lots of people myself included who benefitted from a zero hour contract and 24/7 hour service is I imagine very popular- being able to buy stuff at Amazon first thing in the morning for next day delivery or getting a cheeseburger at 11PM are very helpful for people with busy lives...

TCA2b thoughts?
My thoughts are that people want stability, they get promised that and in lieu of that they get a highly unstable debt-based system to fund what are in actuality hugely expensive demands. People ought to look into friendly and mutual aid societies, which were supplanted by the current welfare plus insurance based model of providing for safety nets. At the moment, you have politicians earmarking amounts for "safety funds" (be it NI or social security), but then raid this piggy bank asap and hope to replenish it through credit expansion-subsidised debt creation which flows to the hands of well-connected state actors and corporations first, giving them superior bidding power in the market ahead of everyone else.

I also think that this stuff against zero hour contracts is misguided, at best. Not everyone has employable skills that make them worth the employer's while to the tune of the costs of a fully funded permie or even temp on NMW. People may not like hearing this but it is the truth and will remain so for as long as the educational and welfare systems result in relevant skills shortages. Both in the case of the contracting market (the more high end "zero hour" contracts, formulated on a commercial basis, allowing hirers to access niche skills, damaged by off payroll tax reforms) and in the case of zero hour contracts, these help people who would otherwise not be worth employing to get onto the job market. Automation becomes more attractive as a prospect after a while. We're not operating in a free market system, so there's lots of structural inefficiencies and distortions (NMW/NI, for example) that lead to these contracts being a clumsy but useful workaround. Employment simply is very costly and complex.
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(Original post by TCA2b)
My thoughts are that people want stability, they get promised that and in lieu of that they get a highly unstable debt-based system to fund what are in actuality hugely expensive demands. People ought to look into friendly and mutual aid societies, which were supplanted by the current welfare plus insurance based model of providing for safety nets. At the moment, you have politicians earmarking amounts for "safety funds" (be it NI or social security), but then raid this piggy bank asap and hope to replenish it through credit expansion-subsidised debt creation which flows to the hands of well-connected state actors and corporations first, giving them superior bidding power in the market ahead of everyone else.

I also think that this stuff against zero hour contracts is misguided, at best. Not everyone has employable skills that make them worth the employer's while to the tune of the costs of a fully funded permie or even temp on NMW. People may not like hearing this but it is the truth and will remain so for as long as the educational and welfare systems result in relevant skills shortages. Both in the case of the contracting market (the more high end "zero hour" contracts, formulated on a commercial basis, allowing hirers to access niche skills, damaged by off payroll tax reforms) and in the case of zero hour contracts, these help people who would otherwise not be worth employing to get onto the job market. Automation becomes more attractive as a prospect after a while. We're not operating in a free market system, so there's lots of structural inefficiencies and distortions (NMW/NI, for example) that lead to these contracts being a clumsy but useful workaround. Employment simply is very costly and complex.
Agreed. The closing of the EU as a job / trade market has simply made things more challenging. In some ways those on zero hours contracts are in a strong position the opportunities to take advantage of higher pay. But since we are all consumers we will all lose out through higher prices / raised inflation.

Mortgage aside I am not looking forward to what looks like an inflationary ride.
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(Original post by TCA2b)
My thoughts are that people want stability, they get promised that and in lieu of that they get a highly unstable debt-based system to fund what are in actuality hugely expensive demands. People ought to look into friendly and mutual aid societies, which were supplanted by the current welfare plus insurance based model of providing for safety nets. At the moment, you have politicians earmarking amounts for "safety funds" (be it NI or social security), but then raid this piggy bank asap and hope to replenish it through credit expansion-subsidised debt creation which flows to the hands of well-connected state actors and corporations first, giving them superior bidding power in the market ahead of everyone else.
Excellent post.

People want less taxes, less borrowing and more free stuff and better public services.

Of course much of this fault lies in liberal democracy which incentivises instant gratification. We're in debt? Borrow another trillion. We have a labour shortage? Let's bring in millions of immigrants. We have a bloated and incompetent public sector? We need their votes, give 'em a pay rise ....Etc ad nauseum.
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Excellent post.

People want less taxes, less borrowing and more free stuff and better public services.

Of course much of this fault lies in liberal democracy which incentivises instant gratification. We're in debt? Borrow another trillion. We have a labour shortage? Let's bring in millions of immigrants. We have a bloated and incompetent public sector? We need their votes, give 'em a pay rise ....Etc ad nauseum.
We froze many supply chains for a year or so, kept people's wages paid, increased the flow of cheap credit, and now prices are rocketing upwards and taxes are on the rise... how can this be! :eek3:
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
I'd rather pay Bob down the street 50k then invite some [censored] from [censored] who'll do it for half the price but will bring their family over here and received benefits and privileges etc that should be going to UK citizens. Not to mention [censored] , cultural differences etc
Who's going to receive benefits that's not a UK citizen? :hmmm:
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Who's going to receive benefits that's not a UK citizen? :hmmm:
People who have lived in the country all their lives as opposed to newly arrived migrants granted citizenship.

Better?

Whilst legally it ma
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