How the UK labour party can win

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Starship Trooper
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Thought I'd do a little exercise. Note that this is just purely about winning power - they don't have to actually believe or follow through with the below (other than point 1). Partly the rationale for part 1 is that smaller parties can take up the mantle and responsibilities of niche causes. Eg 'well, we'd have liked to have reduced immigration but unfortunately our coalition partners disagreed'


1: acknowledge progressive alliance and an electoral pact with other leftwing parties including Snp, plaid, green, lib dem. Support PR.

2: less woke stuff. Doesnt mean chsbge your views just try and avoid it as it is off putting and irrelevant to most people. Most of these people have nowhere to go to esp if you have done point 1. Be vague, slippery and evasise on the issue.

3- Commit to reducing immigration and try and do this is in the most PC way possible. Try and outflank the right on immigration without descending into "bigotry".

4- outflank the Tories on defence spending, continue Starmers push for more patriotism but with more meat. Market yourself as a left wing uk nationalist party (like SNP not BNP)

5- Always be economically to the left on Economics to the Tories but never too far.

6- purge a few far left MPs like John McDonnel.
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username4986690
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Immigration is going to be their greatest stumbling block, the ultra left of the party will have a massive tantrum if they do not get their unfettered immigration and this will in turn lead to the standard infighting that consistently prevents Labour garnering more popular support.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Immigration is going to be their greatest stumbling block, the ultra left of the party will have a massive tantrum if they do not get their unfettered immigration and this will in turn lead to the standard infighting that consistently prevents Labour garnering more popular support.
I agree but I think that if they have an electoral pact in place there's not going to be anywhere else for them to go really.

Also it can be done - see Denmarks labour party in particular.
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Rakas21
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There has already been a de facto electoral alliance between the parties, the Tories did sufficiently well that even official it would have been neutered since the DUP are likely onside.
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imlikeahermit
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Get rid of the extreme left side of the party. The likes of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot.
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JOSH4598
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(Original post by username4986690)
Immigration is going to be their greatest stumbling block, the ultra left of the party will have a massive tantrum if they do not get their unfettered immigration and this will in turn lead to the standard infighting that consistently prevents Labour garnering more popular support.
This will always be Labour's downfall, as only a small proportion of the electorate support their open borders approach to immigration. The Tories have screwed up their opportunity to capitalise on immigration (most notably with the poor response to the Channel crisis) but if they get things in order ahead of the next election they're likely to do well again.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Rakas21)
There has already been a de facto electoral alliance between the parties, the Tories did sufficiently well that even official it would have been neutered since the DUP are likely onside.
2019 I think was an exceptional election.

De facto or not, by making it official it would enable all of the left wing parties to concentrate their resources on winning seats against Tories.

There are a number of seats where for instance if labour or the Liberals had stepped aside for the other they would have been able to win. Of course they basically did that with the amersham candidate but that is outside of the norm where usually they will fight
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
2019 I think was an exceptional election.

De facto or not, by making it official it would enable all of the left wing parties to concentrate their resources on winning seats against Tories.

There are a number of seats where for instance if labour or the Liberals had stepped aside for the other they would have been able to win. Of course they basically did that with the amersham candidate but that is outside of the norm where usually they will fight
Sure however in 2015 and 2017 one must remember that the Liberal Democrats were sufficiently weak that they did not actually cost Labour a large number of seats so it would still be a case of Con-DUP/UKip vs tiny majority for rainbow coalition. Only in 2010 may dividing the seats have really brought victory (and that's assuming that they did not switch Tory since we'd have 13 years of rule and the Great Recession by then).
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Rakas21
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In general though i agree with some of the ethos.

Focus on core issues rather than nonsense issues, embrace patriotism and national pride, the economic offer in 2015 was fine.

I would say that for the Labour Party the progressive alliance and PR are an admission of defeat though and i doubt MP's would actually vote for it. The Liberals in 2012 got burned when Labour walked into the Aye lobby for the second reading of the Lords Reform Bill but then (purposely) sat on their behinds during the vote on the timing amendement required to ensure the bills passage. The Labour Party may be a bit stupid as an entity but it's politicians are somewhat smarter and greedier than we on the right give them credit for, they are not the kind of Turkey's which will vote for christmas if it means sacrificing their chance to govern alone.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Rakas21)
In general though i agree with some of the ethos.

Focus on core issues rather than nonsense issues, embrace patriotism and national pride, the economic offer in 2015 was fine.

I would say that for the Labour Party the progressive alliance and PR are an admission of defeat though and i doubt MP's would actually vote for it. The Liberals in 2012 got burned when Labour walked into the Aye lobby for the second reading of the Lords Reform Bill but then (purposely) sat on their behinds during the vote on the timing amendement required to ensure the bills passage. The Labour Party may be a bit stupid as an entity but it's politicians are somewhat smarter and greedier than we on the right give them credit for, they are not the kind of Turkey's which will vote for christmas if it means sacrificing their chance to govern alone.
I think the thing is though that chance has sailed. Sure they want to rule again but possibly not at the price of never holding office again.

I can't see any possibility of a labour government without third party support.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
I think the thing is though that chance has sailed. Sure they want to rule again but possibly not at the price of never holding office again.

I can't see any possibility of a labour government without third party support.
It's unlikely that Labour can win in 2024 on their own given that they may lose as many as another 20 seats to the Tories where the Brx Party vote is in play from 2019 however in the long run the Labour Party can't be compared to some of the losing entities on the continent. Unlike on the continent where several parties on the left have been in freefall, the Labour Party even exempting 2017 has seen slow vote gains, they have simply been beaten by a Tory Party which has massacred its sorrounding parties (and as alluded to, post 2024 there is nothing left for them short of conquering Wales, Scotland and NI). Indeed, had the locals have been fought in the correct years, Labour would have been celebrating small gains from the 2017 map (we beat them on the 2016 map but the swing was actually against us on the 2017 map).

Now the chances of a 100 seat majority may be minimal for them but the point is that there is currently little evidence that the Labour Party is facing a severe threat from the Lib Dem's or Greens (though the Lib Dem's are likely to gain seats as well, largely at the expense of the Tories) which means that they will probably head into the 2029/2034 elections (or sooner) with a 35-40% vote share which is enough to challenge for a majority once the Tories start losing votes (which is not that unlikely given that as said, there are no real vote sources left post 24).

Whether it's a 5 year stint or another 13 year stint again is the question but even so, people are perhaps a little too excited about the Labour Party's long term loss prospects albeit the caveat is of course that this is so long as things stay broadly as they are.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Rakas21)
It's unlikely that Labour can win in 2024 on their own given that they may lose as many as another 20 seats to the Tories where the Brx Party vote is in play from 2019 however in the long run the Labour Party can't be compared to some of the losing entities on the continent. Unlike on the continent where several parties on the left have been in freefall, the Labour Party even exempting 2017 has seen slow vote gains, they have simply been beaten by a Tory Party which has massacred its sorrounding parties (and as alluded to, post 2024 there is nothing left for them short of conquering Wales, Scotland and NI). Indeed, had the locals have been fought in the correct years, Labour would have been celebrating small gains from the 2017 map (we beat them on the 2016 map but the swing was actually against us on the 2017 map).

Now the chances of a 100 seat majority may be minimal for them but the point is that there is currently little evidence that the Labour Party is facing a severe threat from the Lib Dem's or Greens (though the Lib Dem's are likely to gain seats as well, largely at the expense of the Tories) which means that they will probably head into the 2029/2034 elections (or sooner) with a 35-40% vote share which is enough to challenge for a majority once the Tories start losing votes (which is not that unlikely given that as said, there are no real vote sources left post 24).

Whether it's a 5 year stint or another 13 year stint again is the question but even so, people are perhaps a little too excited about the Labour Party's long term loss prospects albeit the caveat is of course that this is so long as things stay broadly as they are.
I agree with most of that although I'm not sure many in the labour party will be content to be out if office for twenty plus years in the vague hope that people will just get bored of voting Tory .

The point of the electoral alliance isn't about counteracting a threat from other parties ,(either it's insignificant like the greens or the damage has been done like the SNP).

The threat to them are the Tories and their own radical membership self imploding. Which is what the alliance is mean to counter.

The nutters can vote green in certain areas, the liberals can try and conquer wealthy con areas that labour can't reach, the nationalists are possibly neutralised and the lion share of seats goes to labour, who even if they do poorly will still end up in power in much the same way Norway and Swedens centre left have.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Thought I'd do a little exercise. Note that this is just purely about winning power - they don't have to actually believe or follow through with the below (other than point 1). Partly the rationale for part 1 is that smaller parties can take up the mantle and responsibilities of niche causes. Eg 'well, we'd have liked to have reduced immigration but unfortunately our coalition partners disagreed'


1: acknowledge progressive alliance and an electoral pact with other leftwing parties including Snp, plaid, green, lib dem. Support PR.

2: less woke stuff. Doesnt mean chsbge your views just try and avoid it as it is off putting and irrelevant to most people. Most of these people have nowhere to go to esp if you have done point 1. Be vague, slippery and evasise on the issue.

3- Commit to reducing immigration and try and do this is in the most PC way possible. Try and outflank the right on immigration without descending into "bigotry".

4- outflank the Tories on defence spending, continue Starmers push for more patriotism but with more meat. Market yourself as a left wing uk nationalist party (like SNP not BNP)

5- Always be economically to the left on Economics to the Tories but never too far.

6- purge a few far left MPs like John McDonnel.
I really want to support Labour but just can't bring myself to do it. Every time I hear a Labourite use the word "comrade" I inwardly throw up. And yet I can't stand the Tories. I think you are possibly over thinking it.

Definitely number 6 for me, but I think number 7 would sort it pretty easily

7. Simply point out everything the Tories have promised yet no delivered e.g. levelling up.
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Napp
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Point 2 is a non starter, thats their base now. Theyve stopped being the party of the working classes, well they did that many years ago but still, theyre now the party of the metropolitan elite, or more specifically, their children and other crackpot post modernists.
Just seeing the reactions of some of them when labour lost, the bile they spewed at the working classes for not voting for them was pretty eye catching. Corbyn or not, theyre not going to get rid of their student voter base any time soon and seeing as students, either for the most part or a significant minority, seem to have been brainwashed by various critical theories (not that theyre actually real bits of study as opposed to meaningless garbage for the opverly credulous).

Itll be interesting to see if Starmer tries to square the circle and get back the old labour voters given the two groups are mutually exclusive. The new base dont like the working class and the working classes, to generalise, certainly dont like 'wokeism' and its war on British identity.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by hotpud)
I really want to support Labour but just can't bring myself to do it. Every time I hear a Labourite use the word "comrade" I inwardly throw up. And yet I can't stand the Tories. I think you are possibly over thinking it.

Definitely number 6 for me, but I think number 7 would sort it pretty easily

7. Simply point out everything the Tories have promised yet no delivered e.g. levelling up.
What is it you can’t stand about the Tories?
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Quady
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Thought I'd do a little exercise. Note that this is just purely about winning power - they don't have to actually believe or follow through with the below (other than point 1). Partly the rationale for part 1 is that smaller parties can take up the mantle and responsibilities of niche causes. Eg 'well, we'd have liked to have reduced immigration but unfortunately our coalition partners disagreed'


1: acknowledge progressive alliance and an electoral pact with other leftwing parties including Snp, plaid, green, lib dem. Support PR.

2: less woke stuff. Doesnt mean chsbge your views just try and avoid it as it is off putting and irrelevant to most people. Most of these people have nowhere to go to esp if you have done point 1. Be vague, slippery and evasise on the issue.

3- Commit to reducing immigration and try and do this is in the most PC way possible. Try and outflank the right on immigration without descending into "bigotry".

4- outflank the Tories on defence spending, continue Starmers push for more patriotism but with more meat. Market yourself as a left wing uk nationalist party (like SNP not BNP)

5- Always be economically to the left on Economics to the Tories but never too far.

6- purge a few far left MPs like John McDonnel.
So Labour should support Scottish and Welsh independence?

What do you think Welsh Labour will make of that?
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Quady)
So Labour should support Scottish and Welsh independence?

What do you think Welsh Labour will make of that?
No. But they support devoloution and the right to hold a referendum.

Same as what they do as when they work with plaid. Necessary evil.
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Quady
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
No. But they support devoloution and the right to hold a referendum.

Same as what they do as when they work with plaid. Necessary evil.
Why would the SNP or Plaid be interested in a pact then?

Mainly the SNP as that's where 50 seats live. Unless Labour were to offer support for a section 30 on an independence vote surely they'd not entertain it.
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-Imperator-
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On (1), if the Liberal Democrats ever were to join a "Progressive Alliance", their vote share would collapse. People seem to forget that the Lib Dems attract many right-wing voters who see them as safer opposition than Labour due to their economic outlook. The only gains they made in 2019 were in former Conservative seats, representing 'Remain' constituencies. If they were seen to be fighting for a Labour cause, they would lose a lot of support.
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Chadmiral Nelson
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(Original post by JOSH4598)
This will always be Labour's downfall, as only a small proportion of the electorate support their open borders approach to immigration. The Tories have screwed up their opportunity to capitalise on immigration (most notably with the poor response to the Channel crisis) but if they get things in order ahead of the next election they're likely to do well again.
The Tories, namely the economic neo-liberal wing of the party (which is basically in control of it now), have no real incentive to reduce immigration. A surplus of cheap labour is invariably beneficial to big business as it means they can keep costs down by suppressing working class wages. The old left understood this well, Marx himself wrote against the mass importation of cheap foreign labour, so I find it baffling that so many in the Labour party today, even on the economic hard left are actually in favour of unfettered, open borders, when it is so highly detrimental to their core working class base. Their support for immigration seems to be solely ideological, it's as if keeping up the mere appearance of not being xenophobic or 'racist' is more important to them than not actively screwing over your own poor and working class populace.
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