RogerOxon
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#1
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#1
Not the worst of the Chinese leadership's crimes against humanity, but, IMO, yet another human rights abuse:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58921230
(Original post by https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58921230)
Apple takes down Quran app in China
Apple is keeping quiet, for obvious, but immoral (IMO), reasons. Microsoft has decided to discontinue Linked-In in China, stating "having to comply with the Chinese state had become increasingly challenging".

When are countries going to stand-up and be counted on China's repeated human rights abuses?
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michaelhw
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#2
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#2
There are 2 facts that exist at the same time. 1. China is moving towards a more intolerant future under the current Chinese president. 2. The US is only interested in human rights when they overlap with their own foreign policy aspirations. In short, very little was said about this as China was growing, but now that they are about to challenge US dominance, there is an outcry.

I think a compromise should be reached to diffuse current tension in Taiwan. But we should never forget that China will never change course, and will always stand fast to save face. The bullying will continue. Steps must then be taken to reduce western dependency on Chinese factories. Especially in tech. But tourism to and from China, eating their delicious food, watching Chinese movies, reading their books, and so on should only be encouraged.

Move the tech factories to Latin America, where you will kill 4 birds with one stone:
1. Less dependency on China
2. Closer distance to the US market, which is environmentally friendly
3. Fewer immigrants at the border
4. Low wages.

The tech billionaires will not move factories to the US without demanding huge tax cuts. Product prices will nevertheless rise, and revenues fall. So latin America should be a better way of persuading them. Or perhaps Africa

I just hope Taiwan doesn't turn into a semi-fascist US military outpost, like Israel.
Last edited by michaelhw; 1 month ago
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Roberts 64
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#3
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#3
You forget that Western countries are capitalist countries. We have a capitalist class that owns the means of production. In the pursuit of profit, they’ve literally exported this means of production to China. China has already won.

It is such an insane self-own for those who blindly advocated free market capitalism because it was good for their pockets. Mao will be laughing in his grave.
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Fullofsurprises
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#4
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#4
(Original post by RogerOxon)
Not the worst of the Chinese leadership's crimes against humanity, but, IMO, yet another human rights abuse:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58921230

Apple is keeping quiet, for obvious, but immoral (IMO), reasons. Microsoft has decided to discontinue Linked-In in China, stating "having to comply with the Chinese state had become increasingly challenging".

When are countries going to stand-up and be counted on China's repeated human rights abuses?
It's predictable that the Chinese government (unelected and unaccountable) behaves like this. What's to my mind worse is the timid and cynical compliance of major western corporations like Apple and the rest going along with it.

There needs to be legislation in the US and elsewhere to prevent these companies from having government contracts or even being allowed to trade if they breach human rights at will simply to stay in the China markets.
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Rakas21
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#5
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#5
Generally speaking I don't view China in the agressive terms I do Russia or Iran ect.. as China really only cares about getting rich as a country however they are unfortunately pushing the boundaries in their local sphere (Taiwan, breaching the two systems in Hong Kong, threatening sorrounding nations) and they are a dictatorship, this means we must be hesitant.

Essentially I support AUKUS and the local defense alliances in the region and prohibiting Chinese involvement in state contracts. We should also want repatriation of manufacturing although as an economic nationalist I support this regardless.
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londonmyst
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#6
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#6
Yes.
But we must do so fully aware of the economic and foreign relations implications.
The CCP seems to have opted for a return to the old days and aims of Chairman Mao's foul dictatorship (minus madame mao & her friends).
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Gaddafi
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#7
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#7
A full fledged insurgency in Xinjiang and carving out a new nation from China would be a viable idea. I'm surprised the US spent 20 years in Afghanistan and no one suggested that taking advantage of the golden opportunity next door.

This idea has precedence with what the West did to the Soviets in Afghanistan.
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Napp
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#8
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#8
Stand up to them in what way exactly?
Its not like we can simply freeze them out of the global system anymore after confirming them as an essential component of it, well, at least not without several years to divest the supply chains there and even then most countries will simply ignore and directive to cold shoulder China. Merely look at Turkey, usually very happy to thumb their nose at America, with their bending over to Beijing over a core issue (usually) to them of standing up for Muslims.
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Napp
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#9
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#9
(Original post by Gaddafi)
A full fledged insurgency in Xinjiang and carving out a new nation from China would be a viable idea. I'm surprised the US spent 20 years in Afghanistan and no one suggested that taking advantage of the golden opportunity next door.

This idea has precedence with what the West did to the Soviets in Afghanistan.
I rather doubt the Americans, as much as they dislike the Chinese government, wish to see it implode in civil war - of course that ignores the fact that with Chinas whopping defence budget the majority of it is focused on internal security meaning an attempt to try that, aside from being dubious in its utility, would simply end in a blood bath. Rather like what happened to the Shiites in Iraq.
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Jingo7
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#10
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#10
(Original post by Gaddafi)
A full fledged insurgency in Xinjiang and carving out a new nation from China would be a viable idea. I'm surprised the US spent 20 years in Afghanistan and no one suggested that taking advantage of the golden opportunity next door.

This idea has precedence with what the West did to the Soviets in Afghanistan.
Napp already covered this, but just to add: This is very dumb. If the US couldn't make a new nation in Afghanistan, it certainly can't do so in China. If Afghanistan is anything to go by, the 'democratic' forces that the US decides to cultivate would be essentially plutocratic, corrupt and utterly ineffective. It's so unbelievably pathetic to imagine that this could even begin to happen in China.

No mercy for the CCP, but if you want to take them down, first you have to decide who to actually back. Considering that we do not even know that there are effective democratic forces within China, this would be a difficult task, not impossible but difficult. It would also require governments who are actually genuinely for democratic people-powered rule, so that discounts most Western powers sadly.
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Gaddafi
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Jingo7)
Napp already covered this, but just to add: This is very dumb. If the US couldn't make a new nation in Afghanistan, it certainly can't do so in China. If Afghanistan is anything to go by, the 'democratic' forces that the US decides to cultivate would be essentially plutocratic, corrupt and utterly ineffective. It's so unbelievably pathetic to imagine that this could even begin to happen in China.

No mercy for the CCP, but if you want to take them down, first you have to decide who to actually back. Considering that we do not even know that there are effective democratic forces within China, this would be a difficult task, not impossible but difficult. It would also require governments who are actually genuinely for democratic people-powered rule, so that discounts most Western powers sadly.
You clearly have no idea about what we're even discussing here. You're on about things I didn't even mention (like democracy) and you're talking about the wrong Afghan war.

Look at this link to gain a very basic understanding of the topic at hand.

"Carving a new nation out of China" was clearly a reference to the establishment of an independent East Turkestan, hence why I started it of by saying "a full fledged insurgency in Xinjiang."

As for what groups to back, there is a wide range of Uighur armed groups that can be resurrected and then armed and funded.
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Gaddafi
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#12
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#12
(Original post by Napp)
I rather doubt the Americans, as much as they dislike the Chinese government, wish to see it implode in civil war - of course that ignores the fact that with Chinas whopping defence budget the majority of it is focused on internal security meaning an attempt to try that, aside from being dubious in its utility, would simply end in a blood bath. Rather like what happened to the Shiites in Iraq.
Why would you not wish to see China implode in civil war?

Regarding your comment about a blood bath. Of course, you're correct. Hundreds of thousands of Uighurs will be sent to their deaths, freedom does not come cheap and has to be purchased in blood.

I disagree with your opinion regarding dubious in utility though. Remember the start of the Afghan insurrection had similar opinions. My grandad was a brigadier in the Pak army at the time and the first time he heard about it in 1979 he said that they all thought it was a long shot. Plenty of people in the West were hesitant as well. But it worked in the end.

In order for an insurgency to win you need a number of things:

1) A heavily dissatisfied population.
2) A large supply of cannon fodder.
3) An external entity that funds, arms and trains your rebels.

Xinjiang actually isn't native China. How many Han Chinese are willing to die there? The Uighurs just have to be willing to die on a larger scale and they can eventually begin to negotiate a Chinese withdrawal like the Afghan rebels did with the Soviets.
Last edited by Gaddafi; 1 month ago
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Starship Trooper
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#13
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#13
TLDR- just watch this - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfe6d6MzeLM

I mean if you watch that and still think that the US should go to war with Russia and China (and win) then you may as well be Antifa



...
I for one welcome our Chinese Overlords. I would much rather be a second class citizen under Honourable Chairman Jinping than a fifth class citizen under the global American empire etc.

LMAO off at "conservatives" wanting to go to war with China because... they're being mean to people who, if they lived a few miles to the west would presumably want to use drone attacks on :rolleyes: ...presumably in an attempt to re invade Afghanistan so that they can promote Gay Rights and feminism over there. Sir yes sir!!

That said part of me wants AUKUS to get rekt fighting against China. I think the humiliation and fallback from that will be the deathknell for Liberalism.
Last edited by Starship Trooper; 1 month ago
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Gaddafi
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#14
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#14
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
LMAO off at "conservatives" wanting to go to war with China because... they're being mean to people who, if they lived a few miles to the west would presumably want to use drone attacks on :rolleyes: ...presumably in an attempt to re invade Afghanistan so that they can promote Gay Rights and feminism over there. Sir yes sir!!
If this in relation to my comment, just to clarify I don't support war with China - I was thinking more about it from a military POV and why the US didn't take advantage of the opportunity whilst it had it in Afghanistan.

As in if I was an American General I would surely considered it
Last edited by Gaddafi; 1 month ago
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Starship Trooper
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#15
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#15
(Original post by Gaddafi)
If this in relation to my comment, just to clarify I don't support war with China - I was thinking more about it from a military POV and why the US didn't take advantage of the opportunity whilst it had it in Afghanistan.

As in if I was an American General I would surely considered it
Good to know

Wasn't particularly targeting anyone just making a general statement.

Whilst the east is far from perfect and the west is not without its positives it does ultimately come down as

A woke, progressive, feminist society that hates it's heritage and wants to replace it's native population

Vs

A traditional, conservative, masculine society that loves it's heritage and wants to protect its native population. I'll side with this every time.
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Dupe Hunter
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#16
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#16
And do what exactly? We rely on them just as much as they rely on us (The West).
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SHallowvale
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#17
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#17
(Original post by Gaddafi)
Why would you not wish to see China implode in civil war?
China contains over 1 billion people and is a major force behind the world economy. Aside from the obvious reasons, e.g. it would probably lead to millions (if not tens of millions) of people dying, it would be pretty much guaranteed to cause a global economic recession and refugee crisis which would affect everyone else.
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SHallowvale
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#18
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#18
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
That said part of me wants AUKUS to get rekt fighting against China. I think the humiliation and fallback from that will be the deathknell for Liberalism.
> Wishing for the destruction of your own country and the deaths of millions to own the Libs.

God help you, honestly.
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Gaddafi
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#19
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#19
(Original post by SHallowvale)
China contains over 1 billion people and is a major force behind the world economy. Aside from the obvious reasons, e.g. it would probably lead to millions (if not tens of millions) of people dying, it would be pretty much guaranteed to cause a global economic recession and refugee crisis which would affect everyone else.
Hmmm. Well I'm trying to look at this from an American/Western perspective as it's primarily the West which will do something (if anything is done.)

Lets put morality aside, why would I care about millions of dead Chinese people? Has half a million dead Syrians effected the average American? Also the end of the Chinese empire need not result in millions of deaths, the end of the Soviet empire didn't.

Economically sure there would be disadvantages. But it would prevent a bipolar world and ensure American hegemony for a while to come.

In terms of refugees I think we need to look at geography a bit. Chinese refugees won't have many places to go. They can only go up Mongolia/Russia or down via Vietnam - with the rest of their borders not being feasible for millions of people to cross (due to the Himalayas and other mountain ranges.)
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username5813371
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#20
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#20
(Original post by RogerOxon)
Not the worst of the Chinese leadership's crimes against humanity, but, IMO, yet another human rights abuse:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58921230

Apple is keeping quiet, for obvious, but immoral (IMO), reasons. Microsoft has decided to discontinue Linked-In in China, stating "having to comply with the Chinese state had become increasingly challenging".

When are countries going to stand-up and be counted on China's repeated human rights abuses?
Well we have to accept the fact that China is going to be a global superpower, there is absolutely nothing we can do if it wants to take over. China's army is much bigger than the UK and the Mandarin language is in demand to the point where it could take over other languages, I don't agree with what they are doing with Taiwan at all though. I think Taiwan should stay a democratic place and it was separated from China for a reason.
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