No Jab no Job. Agree or disagree?

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U33B
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#1
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#1
The government recently announced that as of 11th November 2021 mandatory vaccinations will be put in place for social care workers as they want to get 40,000 unvaccinated staff into getting the covid jabs and this mandatory order is also for NHS staff, but they only have until April 2022 to get it otherwise they risk losing their jobs. Earlier this week a social worker who was unvaccinated was fired from her job because she refused to take the vaccine and I am guessing we will hear more stories like this in the near future.
The government states a person who is vaccinated will have 50% less chance of passing the virus because they want to protect the elderly, disabled and vulnerable patients who might not respond well to the vaccine. Public health England have said that being double-jabbed reduces the symptoms of Covid-19 by 90% which is why the government is also rolling out covid booster jabs for younger people to further reduce the transmission of covid 19. However, it is controversial because you can still spread the virus even if you are jabbed which leaves us with three questions, if jabs are that good at reducing the spread of the virus, 1) why wait until now to roll out the jabs, why were they not offered way before, 2) why the hell are we wearing masks for and 3) what is the point of social distancing then if you are fully jabbed, because surely you are immune to the virus right?.
Many health professionals have stated that imposing mandatory vaccines on people is unjust, unfair, and irresponsible because everyone should have a choice to take the jab or not. The British Medical Association has predicted a mass walkout from NHS staff which leaves vulnerable patients during the winter months in great danger and can put the NHS under huge immense pressure. Already the NHS is understaffed, where the nurses and health professionals are underpaid and overworked. The very same people who the nation clapped and cheered for every week are now being told if you don`t take the jab, then get another job.
We already know how this new normal life is affecting people’s businesses, health, relationships, mental health, finances, and careers. Young people are even more scared because they are being told to stay away from others especially from grandparents, no hugs, and kisses only fist bumps or elbow to elbow touch, stay indoors and study or work from home.
What are your thoughts and opinion on this whole matter, do you agree or disagree, and would you take the jab or not?
Please be polite and respect people’s differences of opinion and keep your point to the topic rather than talking about other irrelevant stuff.
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Millie8181
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#2
Report 2 weeks ago
#2
Personally, I was not sure on taking the jab but felt forced by my last work place so had an appointment. I never went as I tested positive the day I was supposed to go. After that I felt because I had covid that was perhaps my best chance of getting any defence from catching it again. My immune system would recognise it now and could potentially fight it off better. I still was worried about how fast the jab had been made. However in the safety of those I worked for (elderly/vulnerable) I decided to get it, plus having covid was awful and it this point I was desperate to do anything that meant I wouldn't have covid again.

I'm now at the point where I have had my third covid jab booster. And it is now compulsory for my line of work. And as time goes on, they learn more and more about the jab, just like they have discovered a booster will be beneficial. It's kinda like the flu jab, we have one every year and I won't lie, I go and get jabbed with no idea what they are even outting in to me as I trust it because it's been around for so long so I suppose I have to trust this covid one.

I completely understand why they have made it compulsory but I still believe everyone deserves the right to choose. Just like all the vaccines you have as a child or even female hpv vaccines, they are all choices and today nobody judges too badly if you don't have them. They aren't compulsory so at the end of they day I do believe the covid jab shouldn't be compulsory. Yes it should be strongly advised and recommended but I don't believe it should be forced.

I support both sides for different reasons and am purely 50/50.

It's best to look into the jabs and speak it all through with a professional and voice any concerns and questions with a professional
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harrysbar
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#3
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#3
(Original post by U33B)
The government recently announced that as of 11th November 2021 mandatory vaccinations will be put in place for social care workers as they want to get 40,000 unvaccinated staff into getting the covid jabs and this mandatory order is also for NHS staff, but they only have until April 2022 to get it otherwise they risk losing their jobs. Earlier this week a social worker who was unvaccinated was fired from her job because she refused to take the vaccine and I am guessing we will hear more stories like this in the near future.
The government states a person who is vaccinated will have 50% less chance of passing the virus because they want to protect the elderly, disabled and vulnerable patients who might not respond well to the vaccine. Public health England have said that being double-jabbed reduces the symptoms of Covid-19 by 90% which is why the government is also rolling out covid booster jabs for younger people to further reduce the transmission of covid 19. However, it is controversial because you can still spread the virus even if you are jabbed which leaves us with three questions, if jabs are that good at reducing the spread of the virus, 1) why wait until now to roll out the jabs, why were they not offered way before, 2) why the hell are we wearing masks for and 3) what is the point of social distancing then if you are fully jabbed, because surely you are immune to the virus right?.
Many health professionals have stated that imposing mandatory vaccines on people is unjust, unfair, and irresponsible because everyone should have a choice to take the jab or not. The British Medical Association has predicted a mass walkout from NHS staff which leaves vulnerable patients during the winter months in great danger and can put the NHS under huge immense pressure. Already the NHS is understaffed, where the nurses and health professionals are underpaid and overworked. The very same people who the nation clapped and cheered for every week are now being told if you don`t take the jab, then get another job.
We already know how this new normal life is affecting people’s businesses, health, relationships, mental health, finances, and careers. Young people are even more scared because they are being told to stay away from others especially from grandparents, no hugs, and kisses only fist bumps or elbow to elbow touch, stay indoors and study or work from home.
What are your thoughts and opinion on this whole matter, do you agree or disagree, and would you take the jab or not?
Please be polite and respect people’s differences of opinion and keep your point to the topic rather than talking about other irrelevant stuff.
I agree with it, and wouldn't be surprised if we end up extending it to other sectors too like other countries have done. For those working in the social care sector or the NHS, I think it is entirely appropriate for them to get vaccinated to help protect the vulnerable people they have chosen to work with. If they can't understand why despite all the information and evidence now available, the government has no option but to make it compulsory.
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U33B
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#4
Report Thread starter 2 weeks ago
#4
(Original post by Millie8181)
Personally, I was not sure on taking the jab but felt forced by my last work place so had an appointment. I never went as I tested positive the day I was supposed to go. After that I felt because I had covid that was perhaps my best chance of getting any defence from catching it again. My immune system would recognise it now and could potentially fight it off better. I still was worried about how fast the jab had been made. However in the safety of those I worked for (elderly/vulnerable) I decided to get it, plus having covid was awful and it this point I was desperate to do anything that meant I wouldn't have covid again.

I'm now at the point where I have had my third covid jab booster. And it is now compulsory for my line of work. And as time goes on, they learn more and more about the jab, just like they have discovered a booster will be beneficial. It's kinda like the flu jab, we have one every year and I won't lie, I go and get jabbed with no idea what they are even outting in to me as I trust it because it's been around for so long so I suppose I have to trust this covid one.

I completely understand why they have made it compulsory but I still believe everyone deserves the right to choose. Just like all the vaccines you have as a child or even female hpv vaccines, they are all choices and today nobody judges too badly if you don't have them. They aren't compulsory so at the end of they day I do believe the covid jab shouldn't be compulsory. Yes it should be strongly advised and recommended but I don't believe it should be forced.

I support both sides for different reasons and am purely 50/50.

It's best to look into the jabs and speak it all through with a professional and voice any concerns and questions with a professional
You made a brilliant point in your last paragraph that nobody will judge or hate you if you have any vaccines or not and they are not compulsory, and people should have a choice. But then you said in your line of work they have now made it compulsory to have the jab and you having no idea what they are even doing, surely you should speak up and express your concerns and if possible, leave that job? Previously we were relying on this horrible track and trace system which never worked and now they want people to take the jab whether they like it or not. But you can`t blame yourself or the company because at the of the day they are following the governments confused advice, so I guess we all are screwed. By the way did you have any side effects when taking the jab, because I have heard it can cause numbness in your arms, headaches etc?
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Smack
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#5
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#5
Has there been any analysis that weighs up the risks of unvaccinated healthcare workers in the service compared to that how the health service would operate without them? Given that this won't apply to NHS staff until April, it sounds like someone, somewhere, has indeed reviewed this risk, and possibly found that short staffing due due unvaccinated workers leaving presents a higher risk than unvaccinated workers continuing their service - at least over the busy winter period.

I'm pro-vaccine, but I'm against mandatory vaccine policies in general, though I accept in some cases, in order to perform a role, certain vaccinations may be necessary - I'm not opposed to surgeons required a hepatitis B vaccine, for example. Whether this same precedent can be applied across the entirety of health and social care I am not sure. Given what we know about the efficacy of the vaccines, what they do and what they do not do, how much risk does this reduce to patients? If this policy is primarily about patient safety, with it being assumed - correctly - that vaccinated people are less likely to pass on the virus, or even be infected in the first place, will other methods such as a recent negative test or proof of recovery from a recent infection be an alternative?
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U33B
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#6
Report Thread starter 2 weeks ago
#6
(Original post by harrysbar)
I agree with it, and wouldn't be surprised if we end up extending it to other sectors too like other countries have done. For those working in the social care sector or the NHS, I think it is entirely appropriate for them to get vaccinated to help protect the vulnerable people they have chosen to work with. If they can't understand why despite all the information and evidence now available, the government has no option but to make it compulsory.
But most of the evidence is not fully 100% accurate so why should we blindly follow the governments advice without looking at the if`s and buts? I mean if you are a student, don`t all lecturers say that you shouldn’t accept all the information in journals and articles at face value because there is bound to be some inaccuracies and you might find a different piece of evidence which completely contradicts the initial evidence you saw. Similarly, since the start of the pandemic we were told from the evidence that it will take 4 weeks to flatten the curve and it has been almost 18 months and the cases are still rising. From all the evidence we were told covid spreads faster in open areas so please stay indoors, then new evidence suggested no you can go outside so long as you socially distance from others. Other evidence suggested that Oxford vaccine was the most effective at reducing the rate of Covid 19 but then Pfizer said no ours is better, but how long did they wait before they started introducing their own Pfizer vaccines. And to top it off back in August 2020 we were told from the evidence that its fine you can go out because the government introduced that eat out to help out scheme and then later blamed it on the nation that it was our fault that the covid rates were rising and then we went into another national lockdown. My point is how do we know that this is the holy grail of all the vaccines, and it won`t cause any side effects. You’ve probably heard many people who have recovered from covid without any jabs because they have strong immune system so why jab them as well? We were also told from evidence that once you have covid 19 you can`t get it again but then you still must be jabbed, why?. By the way I am not an anti-vaxxer or antigovernment I am just looking at it from both sides.
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U33B
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#7
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#7
(Original post by Smack)
Has there been any analysis that weighs up the risks of unvaccinated healthcare workers in the service compared to that how the health service would operate without them? Given that this won't apply to NHS staff until April, it sounds like someone, somewhere, has indeed reviewed this risk, and possibly found that short staffing due due unvaccinated workers leaving presents a higher risk than unvaccinated workers continuing their service - at least over the busy winter period.

I'm pro-vaccine, but I'm against mandatory vaccine policies in general, though I accept in some cases, in order to perform a role, certain vaccinations may be necessary - I'm not opposed to surgeons required a hepatitis B vaccine, for example. Whether this same precedent can be applied across the entirety of health and social care I am not sure. Given what we know about the efficacy of the vaccines, what they do and what they do not do, how much risk does this reduce to patients? If this policy is primarily about patient safety, with it being assumed - correctly - that vaccinated people are less likely to pass on the virus, or even be infected in the first place, will other methods such as a recent negative test or proof of recovery from a recent infection be an alternative?
Well, most people are leaving their jobs because of the mandatory policies as opposed to worrying about whether the jab is effective or not. Plus, we already need negative PCR tests to show to enter into the country so you never know we might be heading down that route where would need proof of recovery in the future. It’s crazy how the nation is slowly recovering from the pandemic and rather than helping them, the government decides to enforce mandatory policies to frighten them even more.
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harrysbar
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#8
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#8
(Original post by U33B)
But most of the evidence is not fully 100% accurate so why should we blindly follow the governments advice without looking at the if`s and buts? I mean if you are a student, don`t all lecturers say that you shouldn’t accept all the information in journals and articles at face value because there is bound to be some inaccuracies and you might find a different piece of evidence which completely contradicts the initial evidence you saw. Similarly, since the start of the pandemic we were told from the evidence that it will take 4 weeks to flatten the curve and it has been almost 18 months and the cases are still rising. From all the evidence we were told covid spreads faster in open areas so please stay indoors, then new evidence suggested no you can go outside so long as you socially distance from others. Other evidence suggested that Oxford vaccine was the most effective at reducing the rate of Covid 19 but then Pfizer said no ours is better, but how long did they wait before they started introducing their own Pfizer vaccines. And to top it off back in August 2020 we were told from the evidence that its fine you can go out because the government introduced that eat out to help out scheme and then later blamed it on the nation that it was our fault that the covid rates were rising and then we went into another national lockdown. My point is how do we know that this is the holy grail of all the vaccines, and it won`t cause any side effects. You’ve probably heard many people who have recovered from covid without any jabs because they have strong immune system so why jab them as well? We were also told from evidence that once you have covid 19 you can`t get it again but then you still must be jabbed, why?. By the way I am not an anti-vaxxer or antigovernment I am just looking at it from both sides.
The evidence shows that you CAN get Covid again even if you’ve had it once. Natural immunity doesn’t last forever and the same with Covid vaccines
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Crazed cat lady
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#9
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#9
I fundamentally believe that the decision to get vaccinated is entirely down to the individual.

However, if your job requires you to get vaccinated and you choose not to, I have no qualms with you having to seek employment elsewhere.
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Millie8181
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#10
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#10
(Original post by U33B)
You made a brilliant point in your last paragraph that nobody will judge or hate you if you have any vaccines or not and they are not compulsory, and people should have a choice. But then you said in your line of work they have now made it compulsory to have the jab and you having no idea what they are even doing, surely you should speak up and express your concerns and if possible, leave that job? Previously we were relying on this horrible track and trace system which never worked and now they want people to take the jab whether they like it or not. But you can`t blame yourself or the company because at the of the day they are following the governments confused advice, so I guess we all are screwed. By the way did you have any side effects when taking the jab, because I have heard it can cause numbness in your arms, headaches etc?
Yes I left my job and am in New line of work but still in healthcare sector so still needed jab anyway.

Yes I had side effects. However apparently if you have had covid prior to the vaccines your side effects can be worse. Again I haven't watched the news or followed it for well over a year now because I'm fed up with it all (it's too depressing for me now and it's just the same story over and over) so I've no idea if that's true or not. My first two jabs I was quite unwell for but my third I had sore arm for 24hrs and was fine.
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U33B
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#11
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#11
(Original post by harrysbar)
The evidence shows that you CAN get Covid again even if you’ve had it once. Natural immunity doesn’t last forever and the same with Covid vaccines
Well, the government was talking about herd immunity at one point and saying if almost all of the nation is fully vaccinated then they were looking into slowly removing further restrictions but when they were talking about that, the Delta virus was looming around. The evidence suggests that if you do get symptoms of covid 19 again it could be a new strain of the virus and not the strain which made you positive the first time because the body would have already been immune to that strain.
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harrysbar
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#12
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#12
(Original post by U33B)
Well, the government was talking about herd immunity at one point and saying if almost all of the nation is fully vaccinated then they were looking into slowly removing further restrictions but when they were talking about that, the Delta virus was looming around. The evidence suggests that if you do get symptoms of covid 19 again it could be a new strain of the virus and not the strain which made you positive the first time because the body would have already been immune to that strain.
The Delta strain is the one we all live with now and you can catch it again even if you have been vaccinated or have natural immunity for a while through having caught it before.

Vaccinated people need a booster jab because their immunity has waned after 6 months and that will also be the case for people who caught covid months ago - eventually the immunity wanes.
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harrysbar
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#13
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#13
(Original post by Millie8181)
Yes I left my job and am in New line of work but still in healthcare sector so still needed jab anyway.

Yes I had side effects. However apparently if you have had covid prior to the vaccines your side effects can be worse. Again I haven't watched the news or followed it for well over a year now because I'm fed up with it all (it's too depressing for me now and it's just the same story over and over) so I've no idea if that's true or not. My first two jabs I was quite unwell for but my third I had sore arm for 24hrs and was fine.
So was it worth leaving your job and having to get a new one for a sore arm for 24 hours?
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Millie8181
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#14
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#14
(Original post by harrysbar)
So was it worth leaving your job and having to get a new one for a sore arm for 24 hours?
I was in the healthcare sector when I had my first two jabs and changed jobs to a different role on a different company all still in healthcare so it made no difference really to me getting the jab however it wasn't compulsory at the time. I had my third jab at my new job, the other two jabs at my old one.

The only effects I have had from the vaccines are the ones stated/have lasted a maximum of 3 days or so. I have had no longer term effects.

Yes I worry that it was quite a rushed vaccine but when I think about it, they know how to make vaccines, they have the basis for them already made because pre covid we have had lots of different vaccines so when you think about it, it's actually not too scary that it was made so fast. People were sat in labs all over the world 24/7 trying to find a jab.

However, I have personally had covid, had 2 covid jabs and a third booster so if they request me to have a 4th or 5th in a few months I will probably say no because I feel I have had enough, I am fully vaccinated as required by law for my job. Unless of course it just becomes one a year like the flu jab.

But I never was forced to get a new one. I was unhappy in my old job before I even was spoken to about vaccines and had been looking for a new job for 4 months. It made no difference changing jobs whether or not to have the vaccine. Yes my old job made me feel more pressures to have it and at that point it was not compulsory and that was wrong of them but it's now compulsory so it has made no difference.
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caravaggio2
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#15
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#15
Have you noticed how the media never interviews any of the tens of thousands of NHS and care home workers about why they are choosing to not get a jab?
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JOSH4598
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#16
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#16
(Original post by harrysbar)
I agree with it, and wouldn't be surprised if we end up extending it to other sectors too like other countries have done. For those working in the social care sector or the NHS, I think it is entirely appropriate for them to get vaccinated to help protect the vulnerable people they have chosen to work with. If they can't understand why despite all the information and evidence now available, the government has no option but to make it compulsory.
Which other sectors would you expand compulsory vaccines out to - I'm just curious. Would the rationale be all public-facing jobs, or just jobs where you come into contact with vulnerable people (and what determines vulnerable)?

It's a controversial issue (to say the least) forcing people to take up jabs - I completely understand NHS and care home staff but struggle to see any solid justification for other sectors.
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TCA2b
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#17
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#17
Hard disagree.
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harrysbar
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#18
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#18
(Original post by JOSH4598)
Which other sectors would you expand compulsory vaccines out to - I'm just curious. Would the rationale be all public-facing jobs, or just jobs where you come into contact with vulnerable people (and what determines vulnerable)?

It's a controversial issue (to say the least) forcing people to take up jabs - I completely understand NHS and care home staff but struggle to see any solid justification for other sectors.
I agree with it for people working in care homes and the NHS but don't personally feel like it has to be extended to any other sectors. But I know in some countries other sectors have faced compulsory vaccination, like teachers and other school staff for example.
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JOSH4598
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#19
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#19
(Original post by harrysbar)
I agree with it for people working in care homes and the NHS but don't personally feel like it has to be extended to any other sectors. But I know in some countries other sectors have faced compulsory vaccination, like teachers and other school staff for example.
Yes I agree with you there - frontline doctors and nurses ought to be strongly encouraged (and even mandated) to take up the offer of a vaccine.

I would disagree with the approach of other countries though - I don't see any reasonable explanation as to why teachers must be vaccinated or face being fired when children are of incredibly low risk.
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londonmyst
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#20
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#20
Disagree.
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