31 migrants dead after boat sinks in English Channel

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username5854605
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#1
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#1
R.I.P to them, they all tried to come to the UK for a better life.
Legal immigration is one thing but illegal is another, resources are stretched, housing, NHS waiting lists and services are being pushed to the limits.
What would the solution be to deter people coming illegally?
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Reality Check
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#2
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#2
Chronoscope, PinkMobilePhone - could you move this into D&CA? Thanks
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Chronoscope
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#3
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(Original post by Reality Check)
Chronoscope, PinkMobilePhone - could you move this into D&CA? Thanks
Sorted for ya
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Reality Check
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#4
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(Original post by Chronoscope)
Sorted for ya
Super - thank you!
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tazarooni89
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#5
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#5
You've got to wonder how bad their lives must have been in their own countries, such that they're willing to risk losing their lives to come to this one.
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caravaggio2
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#6
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Bound to happen eventually. With 1200 crossing in one day recently I'm amazed it took this long. 😟
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DSilva
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#7
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Horrific. Imagine how desparate and awful a situation a perosn must be to risk their life like this. Desparatiom that none of us here could ever come close to understanding.

(Original post by klimeks)
R.I.P to them, they all tried to come to the UK for a better life.
Legal immigration is one thing but illegal is another, resources are stretched, housing, NHS waiting lists and services are being pushed to the limits.
What would the solution be to deter people coming illegally?
Have an agreement to have UK asylum offices in France.

I don't buy the sudden concern about NHS waiting lists and housing when those very same people regularly oppose increased spending on the NHS and housing.
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Djtoodles
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#8
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What I want to know is why go through some perfectly fine European countries to get here. Countries which ironically, I would rather live in than the UK.
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DSilva
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#9
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#9
(Original post by Djtoodles)
What I want to know is why go through some perfectly fine European countries to get here. Countries which ironically, I would rather live in than the UK.
Many will have family in the UK, often a spouse or child/parent. Others may speak English but not French. The refugee camps in France are abysmal and inhuman and many believe they will have a better chance of being treated like an actual human being in the UK.

Lots of reasons. You don't get in a dingy like that knowing there's a high risk you'll die unless you're in an unimaginably desparate situation.
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Djtoodles
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#10
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#10
(Original post by DSilva)
Many will have family in the UK, often a spouse or child/parent. Others may speak English but not French. The refugee camps in France are abysmal and inhuman and many believe they will have a better chance of being treated like an actual human being in the UK.

Lots of reasons. You don't get in a dingy like that knowing there's a high risk you'll die unless you're in an unimaginably desparate situation.
Hmm I don’t think being in France, Germany, Spain, Italy or any of the other continental European countries who have been shown to happily take in refugees would constitute an "unimaginably desperate situation".

You are in an "unimaginably desperate situation" and you leave a country, fair enough, seems a bit odd to be so picky about where to pitch a tent.
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DSilva
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#11
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(Original post by Djtoodles)
Hmm I don’t think being in France, Germany, Spain, Italy or any of the other continental European countries who have been shown to happily take in refugees would constitute an "unimaginably desperate situation".

You are in an "unimaginably desperate situation" and you leave a country, fair enough, seems a bit odd to be so picky about where to pitch a tent.
Do you seriously think people would get in a little rubber dingy and knowingly place their life at enormous risk if they weren't in an absolutely desperate situation? Would you?

We're lucky. We live in the UK. We will never know desparatuon like that.

You should read into and watch about what life is like in the refugee camps. Barbaric conditions. The other day there was a piece on the news showing the French authorities confiscating the refugees tents and sleeping bags. Truly inhuman.

Eductae yourself before passing judgement on some of the most vulnerable and desparate people.
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tazarooni89
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#12
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(Original post by Djtoodles)
What I want to know is why go through some perfectly fine European countries to get here. Countries which ironically, I would rather live in than the UK.
The majority of migrants don't do this; the large European countries take in many more migrants and asylum seekers than the UK does. But for those that do ultimately try to make it to the UK, it's because they think that they will have a far better life here than in say France.

Now you might say that you'd prefer to live in certain European countries than in the UK. But if you moved to one of those countries, presumably you would do so by legal means, with basic things like a job and accommodation lined up, with money in your bank account and at least some simple grasp of the language of the country you're going to. I'm sure you'd have a great time there.

However, we're talking about people arriving under very different circumstances - no money, no paperwork, no job, no home etc. and so they're going to choose the country that seems most hospitable to that sort of person. They'll consider how easy it is to get government assistance for the basic necessities in the first instance, what sort of conditions they'll have to live in before finding their own homes, how easily and quickly they'll be able to find work. earn money and start living a normal life. On those grounds they might fancy their chances much better in the UK. That could be because they already speak the language, already know someone living here, or because the UK just treats people like that more humanely and has more efficient processes for getting them integrated into society. Whereas in another country they might have greater fears of being condemned to a life of mistreatment or homelessness.
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DSilva
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#13
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(Original post by tazarooni89)
The majority of migrants don't do this; the large European countries take in many more migrants and asylum seekers than the UK does. But for those that do ultimately try to make it to the UK, it's because they think that they will have a far better life here than in say France.

Now you might say that you'd prefer to live in certain European countries than in the UK. But if you moved to one of those countries, presumably you would do so by legal means, with basic things like a job and accommodation lined up, with money in your bank account and at least some simple grasp of the language of the country you're going to. I'm sure you'd have a great time there.

However, we're talking about people arriving under very different circumstances - no money, no paperwork, no job, no home etc. and so they're going to choose the country that seems most hospitable to that sort of person. They'll consider how easy it is to get government assistance for the basic necessities in the first instance, what sort of conditions they'll have to live in before finding their own homes, how easily and quickly they'll be able to find work. earn money and start living a normal life. On those grounds they might fancy their chances much better in the UK. That could be because they already speak the language, already know someone living here, or because the UK just treats people like that more humanely and has more efficient processes for getting them integrated into society. Whereas in another country they might have greater fears of being condemned to a life of mistreatment or homelessness.
Agree. But unfortunately quite a lot of people seem to almost take a weird sort of macho pride in not caring about others.

It's also worth pointing out that the benefits they get in France are actually higher, and it's easier for them to apply for jobs in France. They are not coming here for eocnomic reasons.
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Djtoodles
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#14
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(Original post by DSilva)
Agree. But unfortunately quite a lot of people seem to almost take a weird sort of macho pride in not caring about others.

It's also worth pointing out that the benefits they get in France are actually higher, and it's easier for them to apply for jobs in France. They are not coming here for eocnomic reasons.
I do care about people actually. I just only have so much care to go around when people are doing objectively stupid stuff for no good reason because as you point out France gives higher benefits and easier jobs lol. Also, as tazarooni89 points out the majority are smart enough not do to this. They all need Darwin Awards tbh.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Djtoodles)
I do care about people actually. I just only have so much care to go around when people are doing objectively stupid stuff for no good reason because as you point out France gives higher benefits and easier jobs lol. Also, as tazarooni89 points out the majority are smart enough not do to this. They all need Darwin Awards tbh.
There are plenty of good reasons.

Many have family in the UK. Many speak English but not French. Many fought on our side such as in the Afghan army. Many are treated awfully in France.

Calling them 'stupid' or saying they have "no good reason" when they face a type of desparation and horror you could never even come close to understanding shows what type of person you really are.
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Djtoodles
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#16
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(Original post by DSilva)
There are plenty of good reasons.

Many have family in the UK. Many speak English but not French. Many fought on our side such as in the Afghan army. Many are treated awfully in France.

Calling them 'stupid' or saying they have "no good reason" when they face a type of desparation and horror you could never even come close to understanding shows what type of person you really are.
Now you mention it not speaking French in France is pretty horrifying and its not like they could go through official channels once they enter Europe either, and now I think about France is an island no other European countries they could get to without crossing water. Hmm maybe ur right and they are all good reasons.

Its like a starving man walking into several buffets and leaving because they don’t have his favourite brand of potato salad.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Djtoodles)
Now you mention it not speaking French in France is pretty horrifying and its not like they could go through official channels once they enter Europe either, and now I think about France is an island no other European countries they could get to without crossing water. Hmm maybe ur right and they are all good reasons.

Its like a starving man walking into several buffets and leaving because they don’t have his favourite brand of potato salad.
Yeah, fleeing persecution and and risking your life to be reunited with your family is just like leaving a buffet for not having potato salad.

I can see you get your kicks out of being a heartless douche, mind. Don't let me stop you.
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Djtoodles
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#18
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#18
(Original post by DSilva)
Yeah, fleeing persecution and and risking your life to be reunited with your family is just like leaving a buffet for not having potato salad.

I can see you get your kicks out of being a heartless douche, mind. Don't let me stop you.
Lol. The thing is they escaped the persecution they were fleeing the second they got into Europe.

If family was the only reason they were aiming for the UK, then someone should mention its £60 quid for the flight from the UK to Europe. Not like the only way to see family is if they are all in the UK.

Don’t misunderstand, I’m sure some of them were good people and in that case their deaths are very much a tragedy and I would prefer it if they were still alive. Hell, if you give me the power of time travel, id go back and make sure they got saved. That being said I only have so many tears when their deaths were caused entirely by taking unnecessary risk when they already did the hard part and got into a civilised part of the world. A part which has the structures in place to help them and allow them get to where they want to be safely. It might take a bit longer but they would still be alive and safe.

But perhaps you’re right and not speaking French but being in France isn’t a moronic reason to risk your life lol.
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DSilva
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Djtoodles)
Lol. The thing is they escaped the persecution they were fleeing the second they got into Europe.

If family was the only reason they were aiming for the UK, then someone should mention its £60 quid for the flight from the UK to Europe. Not like the only way to see family is if they are all in the UK.

Don’t misunderstand, I’m sure some of them were good people and in that case their deaths are very much a tragedy and I would prefer it if they were still alive. Hell, if you give me the power of time travel, id go back and make sure they got saved. That being said I only have so many tears when their deaths were caused entirely by taking unnecessary risk when they already did the hard part and got into a civilised part of the world. A part which has the structures in place to help them and allow them get to where they want to be safely. It might take a bit longer but they would still be alive and safe.

But perhaps you’re right and not speaking French but being in France isn’t a moronic reason to risk your life lol.
Educate yourself.

The reason that refugees dont fly is that very often they don't have a passport or the correct travel documentation. The reason for that is that the embassies in war torn countries often no longer exist and cannot give out passports. If airlines accept people with no documents they can face very heavy fines. Therefore airlines would almost certainly turn them away. Do you really think refugees would place their lives at such risk if getting a plane was even a possibility?

https://www.liberties.eu/en/stories/...he-plane/16316

Refugees are under no legal obligation to claim asylum in the first 'safe' country they arrive in. We signed up to the convention in 1951 and remain members of it.

If you had been forced to flee your country due to war and persecution, you'd much rather go to a country where you could be reunited with your family, and one that actuslly treated you like a human being wouldn't you?

Read up on what it's actually like in the refugee camps for many of them https://mobile.twitter.com/lewis_goo...06096336363521
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legalhelp
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#20
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#20
(Original post by klimeks)
R.I.P to them, they all tried to come to the UK for a better life.
Legal immigration is one thing but illegal is another, resources are stretched, housing, NHS waiting lists and services are being pushed to the limits.
What would the solution be to deter people coming illegally?
I’ll say this nice and clearly for the hard of thinking: entering this country by whatever means in order to seek asylum is NOT illegal. The distinction you are drawing between ‘legal’ and ‘illegal’ immigration (by which you mean those seeking asylum) is a poisonous fallacy, fuelled by the gutter press, and gutter politicians.
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