Climate change will cause mass migration

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richard10012
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#1
As sea levels rise and countries get too warm to grow anything, people will be forced to leave their homes and move
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JOSH4598
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Yes it probably will, albeit not for another decade or more at the earliest.

It's why 'the West' ought to do more to adapt the living arrangements in the countries most affected, to avoid a surge of climate migrants heading (primarily) into Europe alongisde economic migrants coming from Asia and the Middle East. It's quite evident that immigration in Europe is out of control already and this will only cause further issues.
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Starship Trooper
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Yeah any day now...:rolleyes:

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But no. The only thing that causes mass migration into the west in the modern era is liberal politician, left wing activists and various lobbyists, laws and treaties.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
But no. The only thing that causes mass migration into the west in the modern era is liberal politician, left wing activists and various lobbyists, laws and treaties.
Really? I thought it was people fleeing war and terror or searching for a better life. I guess if your home gets flooded out by rising sea levels, that would also fall under the same camp. As Australia is finding out, no amount of being complete and utter a-holes is going to stop immigration.

And to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, if our government collapsed and anarchy reigned, you and your family would be off to live with long lost Auntie Bessie in Spain / Ireland / Australia / Another country, just like everyone else.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by hotpud)
Really? I thought it was people fleeing war and terror or searching for a better life. I guess if your home gets flooded out by rising sea levels, that would also fall under the same camp. As Australia is finding out, no amount of being complete and utter a-holes is going to stop immigration.

And to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, if our government collapsed and anarchy reigned, you and your family would be off to live with long lost Auntie Bessie in Spain / Ireland / Australia / Another country, just like everyone else.
I beg to differ on that count. The US reduced immigration by a whopping 90% under the Trump regime. Of course Biden reversed all these decisions and said the US loved immigration.... Only to then beg them not to come as numbers were too great...

Perhaps. But they would be under no obligation to assist me, particularly if I had nothing useful to offer them and they had good reason to believe that British people would go on to cause crime and undermine their country. If they didn't offer us asylum it would hopefully mean people would have no choice but to sort the country out.

As for our country collapsing i'd say that's pretty slim although if they keep on importing third world migrants then who knows what fun that could bring ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y7WR4ZszgR0
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Starship Trooper
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Also obligatory.

Tbh I genuinely don't have a problem with immigrants. My problem is with the insane (often white) lefties that weaponise them against white/ conservative people. We need to fundamentally sort our country out before taking in more people in, including reintegration of the existing population.

The truth is nobody cares about immigrants the left only find them useful to their agenda. If immigrants began to skew to becoming conservative you better believe labour will go hard on immigration.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
I beg to differ on that count. The US reduced immigration by a whopping 90% under the Trump regime.
Hmmm - that is a rather vague statement. Was immigration reduced because of specific policies Trump put in place or was it also as a result of a pandemic that saw transport routes shut off completely? Also, are you talking about legal migration or illegal migration or both?

I would hypothesise that Biden reversed the decision to increase legal migration because of lobbying from business groups who needed seasonal or specialist labour.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by hotpud)
Hmmm - that is a rather vague statement. Was immigration reduced because of specific policies Trump put in place or was it also as a result of a pandemic that saw transport routes shut off completely? Also, are you talking about legal migration or illegal migration or both?

I would hypothesise that Biden reversed the decision to increase legal migration because of lobbying from business groups who needed seasonal or specialist labour.
Here's the stat I have
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As you can see the decline started in 2016.
But even if it was due to the virus that does at least show it can be done.

Sure, as well as pressure from left wing activists and groups.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Also obligatory.

Tbh I genuinely don't have a problem with immigrants. My problem is with the insane (often white) lefties that weaponise them against white/ conservative people. We need to fundamentally sort our country out before taking in more people in, including reintegration of the existing population.
Sort our country out? Our country will never be sorted, mainly because a) there will never be a consensus on what that even means and b) even if there was a consensus, can you ever say a country has reached a state where you can say it is sorted out?

As for the idea that some white left-wing people weaponise certain issues - sure, I get that. But the way you say it makes it sound like the underlying issue has been made up. Sadly, racism and sexism are still endemic in our society and as white men, we are exceedingly privileged not have experienced it. If you have experienced it, you understand how horrific it is and also how offensive it is that folks like yourself dismiss them as being wokeful to stand up against such behaviour.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by hotpud)
Sort our country out? Our country will never be sorted, mainly because a) there will never be a consensus on what that even means and b) even if there was a consensus, can you ever say a country has reached a state where you can say it is sorted out?

As for the idea that some white left-wing people weaponise certain issues - sure, I get that. But the way you say it makes it sound like the underlying issue has been made up. Sadly, racism and sexism are still endemic in our society and as white men, we are exceedingly privileged not have experienced it. If you have experienced it, you understand how horrific it is and also how offensive it is that folks like yourself dismiss them as being wokeful to stand up against such behaviour.
Sure utopia isn't possible but we can certainly make our country better which would be easier without importing the world's poor.

Racial bigotry exists - eg the KKK last century or indeed BLM/ neo Nazis today.

What doesnt exist is the left wing conspiracy theory of (systemic, institutional) "racism".

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White people in particular have pandered to the delusions of the left for too long, and this has been a catastrophe for everyone. In the eighties we made some good steps and were as good as race relations have ever been.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TIfAkOBMf5A

Since then the left has gotten progressively more insane and irrational and regrettably taken the bulk of minorities with them down their crazy rabbit hole...although a growing number are starting to see sense

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This has been catastrophic fir everyone esp minorities. More black people died because of black on black crime last year than all of the blacks lynched by the KKK.

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hotpud
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#11
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Here's the stat I have
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As you can see the decline started in 2016.
But even if it was due to the virus that does at least show it can be done.

Sure, as well as pressure from left wing activists and groups.
Fair enough. It will be interesting to see how developed economies fair in the future. There will be some who continue to see immigration and others who take a hard line on it. It will be interesting to see how economies develop. My own hypothesis is that immigration is good for economic growth firstly because a ready workforce is good for business but secondly because immigration seeds radical innovation as different cultures and background clash in a most positive manner.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by JOSH4598)
Yes it probably will, albeit not for another decade or more at the earliest.

It's why 'the West' ought to do more to adapt the living arrangements in the countries most affected, to avoid a surge of climate migrants heading (primarily) into Europe alongisde economic migrants coming from Asia and the Middle East. It's quite evident that immigration in Europe is out of control already and this will only cause further issues.
You say that it's the responsibility of the west to adapt however the reality is that aside from a few short land borders we only really need worry about policing the sea and if we committed more resources, we could. Arresting any illegal migrants and putting them in a camp on an island would also provide a good disincentive.
(Original post by hotpud)
Fair enough. It will be interesting to see how developed economies fair in the future. There will be some who continue to see immigration and others who take a hard line on it. It will be interesting to see how economies develop. My own hypothesis is that immigration is good for economic growth firstly because a ready workforce is good for business but secondly because immigration seeds radical innovation as different cultures and background clash in a most positive manner.
Immigration is generally good for nominal growth because it increases the size of the labour force and most western economies are close enough to full employment that new labour can be absorbed.

I'm far from sold on the link with innovation. If you look at nations with the highest innovation indexes, the US and Germany are anomalies in their attitudes to immigration of folk outside the region. Also, third world refugees are not comparable with immigrants, they are among the most deprived and least educated.
Last edited by Rakas21; 1 month ago
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Rakas21)
You say that it's the responsibility of the west to adapt however the reality is that aside from a few short land borders we only really need worry about policing the sea and if we committed more resources, we could. Arresting any illegal migrants and putting them in a camp on an island would also provide a good disincentive.

Immigration is generally good for nominal growth because it increases the size of the labour force and most western economies are close enough to full employment that new labour can be absorbed.

I'm far from sold on the link with innovation. If you look at nations with the highest innovation indexes, the US and Germany are anomalies in their attitudes to immigration of folk outside the region. Also, third world refugees are not comparable with immigrants, they are among the most deprived and least educated.
Prsom

I agree with the island idea. Dump in a refugee centre on some abandoned island in Scotland somewhere and livestream the footage.

Agreed on the immigration point. hotpud People are not complaining about doctors from Japan and engineers from Switzerland. I would agree these are net benefits. But they are not the majority

What fascinating ideas and innovation is someone who is going to work as a toilet cleaner from (****) going to bring? All I'm seeing is them bringing the worst parts of their culture...(maybe there's s reason who some of them are not welcome in their home country)

*Some of the world's poorest and most war torn countries.
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JOSH4598
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(Original post by Rakas21)
You say that it's the responsibility of the west to adapt however the reality is that aside from a few short land borders we only really need worry about policing the sea and if we committed more resources, we could. Arresting any illegal migrants and putting them in a camp on an island would also provide a good disincentive.
I agree that borders need to be policed far more robustly than they currently are, however as we see currently with migrants in Europe who have come from Africa or the Middle East, there is very little you can do to disincentivise migration. Irrespective of what measures you put in place, they still want to get into Europe because it at least offers hope which they lack in their homeland.

When I say adapt, I mean the West should collectively support certain at-risk communities by developing more sustainable employment (compared to agriculture which relies on the environment) or modifying buildings to withstand more extreme weather. Simply ignoring the problem and funnelling resources into border patrols won't stop them coming, you'll just create a bottleneck of migrants who will eventually permeate or overwhelm the controls you put in place.
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TCA2b
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(Original post by JOSH4598)
I agree that borders need to be policed far more robustly than they currently are, however as we see currently with migrants in Europe who have come from Africa or the Middle East, there is very little you can do to disincentivise migration. Irrespective of what measures you put in place, they still want to get into Europe because it at least offers hope which they lack in their homeland.

When I say adapt, I mean the West should collectively support certain at-risk communities by developing more sustainable employment (compared to agriculture which relies on the environment) or modifying buildings to withstand more extreme weather. Simply ignoring the problem and funnelling resources into border patrols won't stop them coming, you'll just create a bottleneck of migrants who will eventually permeate or overwhelm the controls you put in place.
Purely from a pragmatic, prudential POV, I think that makes sense if you mean doing that within their own countries - much as it makes far more sense to resettle 'refugees' in the local region than it does to 'welcome them with open arms', which typically equates to people in nice mansions in the Cotswolds or similar virtue signalling on twitter about it whilst they're dumped on unwilling small communities.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Rakas21)
I'm far from sold on the link with innovation. If you look at nations with the highest innovation indexes, the US and Germany are anomalies in their attitudes to immigration of folk outside the region. Also, third world refugees are not comparable with immigrants, they are among the most deprived and least educated.
I think you have answered your own question. The US and Germany have seen huge swathes of migration over the years, the US in particular and many of the innovations they have made have been linked to the clashing of minds from different parts of the world.

By contrast, Russia and China have languished. Most of their innovation is based on espionage. Japan is a slight oddity, but all they bought to the table was taking existing ideas and producing them vastly more efficiently. In recent years, the focus of innovation has moved away from Japan and technologically speaking is back in the US and West.
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hotpud
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
What fascinating ideas and innovation is someone who is going to work as a toilet cleaner from (****) going to bring?
Given many people who migrate here and end up in factories or cleaning toilets had degrees back at home and jobs like teachers and doctors, who knows. The ridiculousness of our immigration policy is we treat all migrants the same regardless of the impressive educational levels some have.

Either way, as long as our economy is doing well and we are happy to allow other areas of the world rot in hell, they will come. Sure, if it makes you feel better that people are suffering in hell on an island in Scotland then go for it, but it won't solve the problem.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by hotpud)
I think you have answered your own question. The US and Germany have seen huge swathes of migration over the years, the US in particular and many of the innovations they have made have been linked to the clashing of minds from different parts of the world.

By contrast, Russia and China have languished. Most of their innovation is based on espionage. Japan is a slight oddity, but all they bought to the table was taking existing ideas and producing them vastly more efficiently. In recent years, the focus of innovation has moved away from Japan and technologically speaking is back in the US and West.
Please show me the link between taking in vast levels of immigration from Africa, middle east and south America and technological innovation.

The US and Germany have been industrial powerhouses and been technologically ahead for centuries including under the third Reich or when the States were by modern standards white supremacist.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by hotpud)
Given many people who migrate here and end up in factories or cleaning toilets had degrees back at home and jobs like teachers and doctors, who knows. The ridiculousness of our immigration policy is we treat all migrants the same regardless of the impressive educational levels some have.

Either way, as long as our economy is doing well and we are happy to allow other areas of the world rot in hell, they will come. Sure, if it makes you feel better that people are suffering in hell on an island in Scotland then go for it, but it won't solve the problem.
Or maybe they're standards aren't as good?

How is having open borders solving the problem? The only way the problem can be solved Is through colonisation.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by hotpud)
I think you have answered your own question. The US and Germany have seen huge swathes of migration over the years, the US in particular and many of the innovations they have made have been linked to the clashing of minds from different parts of the world.

By contrast, Russia and China have languished. Most of their innovation is based on espionage. Japan is a slight oddity, but all they bought to the table was taking existing ideas and producing them vastly more efficiently. In recent years, the focus of innovation has moved away from Japan and technologically speaking is back in the US and West.
As ST alludes to, this is an argument for importing immigrants in general, not refugees.

Many of the most innovative states do not take significant third world migrants.

https://www.patent-pilot.com/en/indu...n-inhabitants/

I'm all for importing 100,000 Germans, I'm not sold that we need to import 100,000 Algerians.
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