Too easy to get into university Watch

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Chicken
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#81
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#81
(Original post by *alicia*)
The only thing that worries me is that people can do an education degree with pretty poor A-Levels! :eek:
My mum failed most of her A-Levels, went to teachier training college and qualified as a teacher - she's now a deputy head of a primary school having only actually worked as a teacher for 12 years, is doing a headteachers course and is a leading maths teacher in our area (despite not even having the equivalent to a maths GCSE at grade C). It just goes to prove, again, that A-levels aren't everything.
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Muse
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#82
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(Original post by Chicken)
My mum failed most of her A-Levels, went to teachier training college and qualified as a teacher - she's now a deputy head of a primary school having only actually worked as a teacher for 12 years, is doing a headteachers course and is a leading maths teacher in our area (despite not even having the equivalent to a maths GCSE at grade C). It just goes to prove, again, that A-levels aren't everything.
that doesn't mean to say it would be possible now though
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trev
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#83
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There is a possibilty of that kind of situation above happening now.
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AT82
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#84
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(Original post by Chicken)
My mum failed most of her A-Levels, went to teachier training college and qualified as a teacher - she's now a deputy head of a primary school having only actually worked as a teacher for 12 years, is doing a headteachers course and is a leading maths teacher in our area (despite not even having the equivalent to a maths GCSE at grade C). It just goes to prove, again, that A-levels aren't everything.
For teaching at primary school levels I don't think A levels should be that important anyway, I would have though the ability to do the basic maths and english and the procession of all the right personal qualities are much more important in that job.

My dad only has two grade E levels and he used to work as a senior librarian statiscaly he was the best librarian in the area in terms of people borrowing his books. He also had to often help his work partner who had a degree when it came to statistical analysis because he was hopeless at it, despite having more qualifications than my dad.
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AT82
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#85
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(Original post by timeofyourlife)
that doesn't mean to say it would be possible now though
I don't think you need that many qualifications to get onto a teaching training course, you need 5 A-Cs GCSEs including english and maths, and I think you need a science subject if born after 1979.

As far as I am aware A levels are not that important, you do need a 2:2 or above to get onto most teacher training courses though, I think in the old days you could to do the training straight after A levels like the course my dad which is now a post graduate course. Yet those days all you needed is two E's at A level. My dad also had a CCB offer to read geography at Cambridge. How times have changed.
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Muse
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(Original post by trev)
There is a possibilty of that kind of situation above happening now.
Even if you have failed most of your A-Levels..?

My mum failed most of her A-Levels
:confused: Surely a bachelor of education degree needs something at least similar to CCC at A-Level?
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AT82
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#87
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(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Even if you have failed most of your A-Levels..?



:confused: Surely a bachelor of education degree needs something at least similar to CCC at A-Level?
You would be surprised at primary level personal qualities are much more important than knowledge of osmosis or distalisisation(sp). I think at secondary level (PGCE) A levels are perhaps more important but they set it low becuase they don't want to exclude many people who may make very good teachers (like Chicken's mum).
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Muse
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#88
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
A levels are perhaps more important but they set it low becuase they don't want to exclude many people who may make very good teachers (like Chicken's mum).
I'm referring to current-day arrangements. I didn't think it was possible these days to fail your A-Levels and still get on a teachers' training course.
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AT82
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#89
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(Original post by timeofyourlife)
I'm referring to current-day arrangements. I didn't think it was possible these days to fail your A-Levels and still get on a teachers' training course.
Its not, but it depends what you mean by faill.

To start postgraduate ITT you must have a degree awarded by a United Kingdom university, or other institution that can make such awards, or a recognised equivalent qualification. The degree should be related to the subject you want to teach.

You must also have achieved a standard equivalent to a grade C in the GCSE examination in English language and mathematics. If you were born on or after 1 September 1979 and want to teach primary or Key Stage 2/3, you must also have achieved a standard equivalent to a grade C in the GCSE examination in a science subject.

Taken from http://www.teach.gov.uk/php/read.php...articleid=2582

So its actually quite loose, in theory you probably don't need A levels at all.
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Chicken
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#90
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I don't think, if you have my mum's qualifications, you would be let on to study education anymore. I was just pointing out that this could be unfair, as its not necessarily intelligence needed to be a good teacher, its more a natural talent and right attitude that makes a good teacher. I once had a chemistry teacher who had a first class degree and PhD before she did her PGCE, and she was one of th worst teachers i've ever had. She taught my class (who were top set) and couldn't handle anyone asking her a question that went a bit further into what she was teaching, and so wasn't in the textbook. She only lasted a year at my school.

AT - Primary and Secondary school teaching require different qualifications - for a primary school you need to do a teaching degree and get a BEd qualification (I think). For secondary, you have to do your first degree, and then a year PGCE (Post Graduate Certificate of Education). But both ways require you to have at least grade C's in english, maths and science GCSE's, and obviously you need to have the A-Levels to get into university to study in the first place. Which is a shame for primary school teaching, as you don't really need anything of A-level standard, as you won't be teaching it.
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Chicken
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(Original post by timeofyourlife)
:confused: Surely a bachelor of education degree needs something at least similar to CCC at A-Level?
It didn't in 1977, or when my mum did it!
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InterCity125
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#92
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(Original post by trev)
Everybody has the right to go to university. They will have a chance to succeed in university if they don't have that good grades. Some people who went to university with medicore grades, get out of uni with a good degree.
Do they?
If there were fewer courses then it would be free for those on other courses. During the 1970s only 14% went on to furthed education. It never did the country any harm. I fail to see the point of courses in golf course managment and dance therapy to be quite honest. At one time such things were dealt with as vocational training at less cost to the state.
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AT82
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#93
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(Original post by InterCity125)
Do they?
If there were fewer courses then it would be free for those on other courses. During the 1970s only 14% went on to furthed education. It never did the country any harm. I fail to see the point of courses in golf course managment and dance therapy to be quite honest. At one time such things were dealt with as vocational training at less cost to the state.
The econemy has changed some what since then, if the amount of people going to university was reduced then the British education system would suffer and there would be a lack of investment. The trend increasing higher education numbers is happening in the USA, Europe and Australia I am not sure about the far east.

The gold course management is a one of example, and if you can find me a a year degree course that only teaches dance therapy I will eat my hat. There is too much in modern technical jobs to be taught in colleges. There is many issues involved like the fundemental understanding of concepts, this is what is taught in university. Web development is a classic example, you can do that in colleges but they miss out on so much fundemental stuff such as design practise theory which is stuff you need to know. For example there is a reason GUIs are developed in the way they are, you cannot just randomly place icons or links on the screen and expect it to be easy to use.

This is just an example I can think of at the top of my head. Golf course management is probably the same, it probably goes into lots of legal technicalities that only universities have the knowledge and resources to teach.

However there are some very strange degrees out there, Office Skills being one them, this is offered a foundation degree and basicaly teaches you how to do filling and how to type. This sort of stuff perhaps should not be taught at HE institutions.
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Christophicus
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#94
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(Original post by Taldarion)
you need to be shot
lmao!!! Well said mate, what a ********
You can fill in the blanks if you want to, though you may get a warning.
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Elles
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#95
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hmm, i think i fall down on the side of 'university education as a priviledge'. the target of 50% of young people going to uni seems absurd to me, especially with the classification inflation - surely you'll just end up with a graduate glut.

ideally i'd formulate some sort of system where people apply for government funding based on an application arguing the case for their course being relevant to society/their enrichment/how hard they've worked for this/means testing etc. & of course, i would have all my fees paid & a bursary awarded.. :p:

so people going to university merely for 'the experience' can pay for it all themselves, like you would a day trip to the zoo or something.. :hmpf:
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AT82
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#96
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Its not that simple though, such a system may mean that people who deserve places cannot go and people can who are only going for fun can easily fool the system.

I do agree 50% is too much however I have said this before and I will say it again, this 50% target is missleading.

1) Its 50% of under 21s (I am not 100% sure about this, but I know there is an age cap)

2) That 50% target includes HNCs, HNDs, foundation degrees and any kind of HE diplomas. Quite often these courses are not taught in universities but by FE/HE colleges.

So there was never a 50% target for people going to university in the first place, its just the press like to word it that way to make stories.
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Elles
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Its not that simple though, such a system may mean that people who deserve places cannot go and people can who are only going for fun can easily fool the system.
well, in my hypothetical system it would be perfect & quite an arduous process with interviews/essays/references etc.

what criteria do you think means someone 'deserves' to go?

& i don't know much about the source of the 50% quote.. but even HE/FE colleges still cost money.. i'm obviously becoming heartless in my old age..
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AT82
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#98
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I think anybody that can benefit from higher education deserves to go as longs as they can proove they can cope. This is usualy A levels.

I think they should make it easier to kick people of the course though, for example if you never turn up and get bad marks if you have no reasonable explanation for this perhaps they could chuck you in the job centre.
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granddad_bob
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#99
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
I think anybody that can benefit from higher education deserves to go as longs as they can proove they can cope. This is usualy A levels.
surely there's a limit though? i mean, does a student who gets EE (or even DDE) deserve to go to university no matter how much they would benefit from the experience? in my opinion, they don't. (barring exceptional circumstances)

also, what is and isn't coping? i personally would say that a student in a third or pass catogary isn't coping with the course, whereas others may say that anything above 30% (or the pass/fail boundary) should be able to continue. (see above)

personally, i'd set a minimum requirement of CDD and be done with it. if you get below that, without a pretty good excuse, you've no place on a degree course.
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InterCity125
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#100
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
The econemy has changed some what since then, if the amount of people going to university was reduced then the British education system would suffer and there would be a lack of investment. The trend increasing higher education numbers is happening in the USA, Europe and Australia I am not sure about the far east.

The gold course management is a one of example, and if you can find me a a year degree course that only teaches dance therapy I will eat my hat. There is too much in modern technical jobs to be taught in colleges. There is many issues involved like the fundemental understanding of concepts, this is what is taught in university. Web development is a classic example, you can do that in colleges but they miss out on so much fundemental stuff such as design practise theory which is stuff you need to know. For example there is a reason GUIs are developed in the way they are, you cannot just randomly place icons or links on the screen and expect it to be easy to use.

This is just an example I can think of at the top of my head. Golf course management is probably the same, it probably goes into lots of legal technicalities that only universities have the knowledge and resources to teach.

However there are some very strange degrees out there, Office Skills being one them, this is offered a foundation degree and basicaly teaches you how to do filling and how to type. This sort of stuff perhaps should not be taught at HE institutions.
Dance Thearpy - university of Derby - they used to build trains there - a mcuh more useful thing, IMO.
There has been a change to the economy yes, but this new trend of university is causing problems in itself. For example, there is a culture of over-qualification whereby people previosly quailified for a job now need more qualifications to get it. This forces some people, for example those leaving school at 16 out of the job market. At one time, for example, you could join the railways at 16 and work up to managment - no chance of that thesedays realisitcally.
But do all web-desingers need to understand the basies of things - would you say that all train-drivers need to know how to build a train?
Yes golf-course managment might teach lots - but is it useful? On that basis train driving could become a degree course, but instead it is taught at traning school and on the job - I don't see why golf course managment should be any different when we've had golf courses for years without any degrees in how to manage them.
Just a few ideas....
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