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Was Zionism a form of colonial settlement? watch

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    So, I've been studyin this Israel Palestine issue..and I have to write an essay on Zionism..started doing some reading from both sides..its just the more I'm reading, the more confused I get I can't decide..So far the only 2 points I can argue are: 1) when migration to Palestine started in late 1800s, Jewish kibbutz were set up, they slowly started to exclude Arab labour..(apparently this is in support of Zionist colonialism) but then I read..When Jewish people set up agricultral settlements, the use of Arab Labour was very comon..in fact, it was favoured over Jewish labour since it was cheaper..so that sorta contradicts the above point...ANYBODY CARE TO HELP ME?
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    Just for a start: Personal message me. Who else to help u than our resident Revisionist Zionist

    Secondly, a colonial settlement requires a colonial power, what colonial power were the Yishuv following? We simply needed a Jewish state. These Jewish laws were to encourage Jewish immigration. You can't have a Jewish state without Jews.
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    The only colonial power at work was the British. They set it all up. (which was fair, considering what was being done to them in Germany)
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    Also I think it's also important to note the British Mandatory government was "siding" with the Arabs in the Mandate, working against a Jewish state - despite the Balfour Declaration.
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    Poor Arabs. You gotta feel sorry for the way the Jews forced them out their homes, and took over them.

    And, you gotta admire the Jews for their craftiness...

    But come on, yeh it might of been wrong. 50-60 years later, they're still fighting. It's time for an end, for peace and for two states to be created!!
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    (Original post by daruishraz)
    Poor Arabs. You gotta feel sorry for the way the Jews forced them out their homes, and took over them.

    And, you gotta admire the Jews for their craftiness...

    But come on, yeh it might of been wrong. 50-60 years later, they're still fighting. It's time for an end, for peace and for two states to be created!!
    The last bit is true, the rest is over simplified ******** which shows a lack of understanding of the conflict.
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    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    The last bit is true, the rest is over simplified ******** which shows a lack of understanding of the conflict.
    Well, why didn't the Jews go to Germany. Why did they go and pick on innocent Palestinians? They knew that there would be war, going in the centre of the Muslim World.

    I'm not religous, I'm a Muslim/Agnostic. But, I won't be silenced with the truth. Prove me with argument in favour of the Jews, if you have so much passion and respect my argument.

    In no way, I want to come across as being wrong, I just want the truth on this issue.
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    (Original post by daruishraz)
    Well, why didn't the Jews go to Germany. Why did they go and pick on innocent Palestinians? They knew that there would be war, going in the centre of the Muslim World.

    I'm not religous, I'm a Muslim/Agnostic. But, I won't be silenced with the truth. Prove me with argument in favour of the Jews, if you have so much passion and respect my argument.

    In no way, I want to come across as being wrong, I just want the truth on this issue.
    Because in Germany they were still suffering from pogroms. You think the holocaust survivors came back to their houses and their neighbors changed their minds? We didn't pick on the Palestinians, the Palestinians were offered a state in 1937 which was 4 times bigger than the Jewish state proposed at the same time, before the Holocaust(Peel commision) but rejected it. The Palestinians had been killing the Jews and discriminating the Jews since far before the holocaust, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem tried to have concentration camps set up near Nablus. The Palestinians have been offered a state 4 times and rejected everyone. By not accepting these deals they have been the authors of their own downfall. In '48 they tried to destroy the Jewish state rather than declaring their own independent, and subsequently they were unfortunately expelled. This was a self defense measure.

    Also take mind in 1917 the Arab who was thought to inherit the Mandatory area, Faisal agreed to give a Jewish state: so your point that " They knew that there would be war, going in the centre of the Muslim World." is ridiculous. You paint the Palestinians as innocent, but the Palestinians are the architects of their own suffering. We don't take joy in it, but the Palestinians have orchestrated it all.

    "We will use all the means at our disposal to defend our people" - Menachem Begin

    "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours." - Golda Meir

    None of the points you make have any validity whatsoever.
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    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    Just for a start: Personal message me. Who else to help u than our resident Revisionist Zionist

    Secondly, a colonial settlement requires a colonial power, what colonial power were the Yishuv following? We simply needed a Jewish state. These Jewish laws were to encourage Jewish immigration. You can't have a Jewish state without Jews.

    OOh OOH, merci buckets..I'm going to PM you in a while
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    (Original post by adam_iz2)
    OOh OOH, merci buckets..I'm going to PM you in a while
    That's absolutely fine
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    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    Because in Germany they were still suffering from pogroms. You think the holocaust survivors came back to their houses and their neighbors changed their minds? We didn't pick on the Palestinians, the Palestinians were offered a state in 1937 which was 4 times bigger than the Jewish state proposed at the same time, before the Holocaust(Peel commision) but rejected it. The Palestinians had been killing the Jews and discriminating the Jews since far before the holocaust, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem tried to have concentration camps set up near Nablus. The Palestinians have been offered a state 4 times and rejected everyone. By not accepting these deals they have been the authors of their own downfall. In '48 they tried to destroy the Jewish state rather than declaring their own independent, and subsequently they were unfortunately expelled. This was a self defense measure.

    Also take mind in 1917 the Arab who was thought to inherit the Mandatory area, Faisal agreed to give a Jewish state: so your point that " They knew that there would be war, going in the centre of the Muslim World." is ridiculous. You paint the Palestinians as innocent, but the Palestinians are the architects of their own suffering. We don't take joy in it, but the Palestinians have orchestrated it all.

    "We will use all the means at our disposal to defend our people" - Menachem Begin

    "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours." - Golda Meir

    None of the points you make have any validity whatsoever.
    In response to your quote:
    Germany was the one which started the holocaust suffering of the Jews, not the Arabs, so they should of been punished for it and the Jews should of been given a part of Germany. Or, in the present day the USA should give them a part of Alaska :yep:
    Its obvious that the peaceful Palestinians would not accept a state at the time, because they already lived somewhere and occupied it, and it was undermined the jews would occupy Palestine even to this day.
    How do you justify the torture Israel implemented in the wars to innocent Arabs? Using electrodes shock the Palestinians genital areas, and the most sensitive pressure spots.
    OR, videos online which show Palestinian women being forced out their homes by some Jewish Zionist women?
    Why dont they give the palestinians there own state now? Why under international agreements (UN for example) does Israel still occupy the other lands which should belong to the Palestinians?
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    (Original post by daruishraz)
    In response to your quote:
    Germany was the one which started the holocaust suffering of the Jews, not the Arabs, so they should of been punished for it and the Jews should of been given a part of Germany. Or, in the present day the USA should give them a part of Alaska :yep:
    Its obvious that the peaceful Palestinians would not accept a state at the time, because they already lived somewhere and occupied it, and it was undermined the jews would occupy Palestine even to this day.
    How do you justify the torture Israel implemented in the wars to innocent Arabs? Using electrodes shock the Palestinians genital areas, and the most sensitive pressure spots.
    OR, videos online which show Palestinian women being forced out their homes by some Jewish Zionist women?
    Why dont they give the palestinians there own state now? Why under international agreements (UN for example) does Israel still occupy the other lands which should belong to the Palestinians?
    The first part is nonsensical and retarded, so I'm going to choose to ignore it until you actually justify what your saying other that the inane argument that "The Jews were attempting to attain a state in Palestine since before 1900 but the Germans killed lots so they should leave the place which is so special to them and go live in Germany where they suffer massive discrimination." (By the way the Germans did "start the holocaust" but the Arabs had been anti-Semitic, and had engaged in pogroms and race riots far before the Germans did. Ie. The Hebron Massacre of 1929[which I lost a relative in]. Also take a look at the profile of this fellow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni)

    On the second point, if you take millions of soldiers, and put them in zones where the natives are hostile, some of them will do wrong things. It's not a state sponsored thing, and we pass laws against it. You cannot condemn Israel for what a few members of it's society do. On the second point in 2001 Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat a Palestinian state encompassing the entire Gaza Strip, and 96% of the West Bank, authority over East Jerusalem, right of return for any Palestinians with Israeli Arab relatives, and a fiscal compensation package. It was rejected.(And after rejecting the Camp David accords of 2001 Yasser Arafat began planning for the Al-Aqsa Intifada(riots)) In any case right now any Palestinian state would be used to launch attacks against Israeli citizens, this is a fact(look at Gaza, which is - essentially - a Palestinian state). How can you expect Israel to give concessions to the Palestinians which it knows will cause the death of many of it's civilians, and will be a massive security hazard. And trust me, given Durban, and the severe leftist bias of the UN, anything the UN says should be disregarded. Also on another note nothing "should" belong to the Palestinians. They have no actual claim to anything anymore than the Native Americans have to the whole US(in fact the Native Americans have a greater claim).

    Also, a quote (from my signature):

    "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

    - Zuheir Mohsen, member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization.
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    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    The first part is nonsensical and retarded, so I'm going to choose to ignore it until you actually justify what your saying other that the inane argument that "The Jews were attempting to attain a state in Palestine since before 1900 but the Germans killed lots so they should leave the place which is so special to them and go live in Germany where they suffer massive discrimination." (By the way the Germans did "start the holocaust" but the Arabs had been anti-Semitic, and had engaged in pogroms and race riots far before the Germans did. Ie. The Hebron Massacre of 1929[which I lost a relative in]. Also take a look at the profile of this fellow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni)

    On the second point, if you take millions of soldiers, and put them in zones where the natives are hostile, some of them will do wrong things. It's not a state sponsored thing, and we pass laws against it. You cannot condemn Israel for what a few members of it's society do. On the second point in 2001 Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat a Palestinian state encompassing the entire Gaza Strip, and 96% of the West Bank, authority over East Jerusalem, right of return for any Palestinians with Israeli Arab relatives, and a fiscal compensation package. It was rejected.(And after rejecting the Camp David accords of 2001 Yasser Arafat began planning for the Al-Aqsa Intifada(riots)) In any case right now any Palestinian state would be used to launch attacks against Israeli citizens, this is a fact(look at Gaza, which is - essentially - a Palestinian state). How can you expect Israel to give concessions to the Palestinians which it knows will cause the death of many of it's civilians, and will be a massive security hazard. And trust me, given Durban, and the severe leftist bias of the UN, anything the UN says should be disregarded. Also on another note nothing "should" belong to the Palestinians. They have no actual claim to anything anymore than the Native Americans have to the whole US(in fact the Native Americans have a greater claim).

    Also, a quote (from my signature):

    "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

    - Zuheir Mohsen, member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization.
    Thanks! I actually knew about the arguments for the Israel/Palestine issue, however sometimes I forget why I can justify Israel/Palestines actions, and need to be reprimanded! Thanks for that anyway, I believe that you are right on a note, but maybe just a few little small things on Israels behalf, but thats the past. I mean look what the US Soldiers did in Abu Gharaib prison, it was a very small minority, it doesn't mean all the soldiers are guilty of it.
    Shalom.
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    (Original post by daruishraz)
    Thanks! I actually knew about the arguments for the Israel/Palestine issue, however sometimes I forget why I can justify Israel/Palestines actions, and need to be reprimanded! Thanks for that anyway, I believe that you are right on a note, but maybe just a few little small things on Israels behalf, but thats the past. I mean look what the US Soldiers did in Abu Gharaib prison, it was a very small minority, it doesn't mean all the soldiers are guilty of it.
    Shalom.
    You too Now I feel a little bad that post was slightly aggressive :p:

    صلح
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    It's a long conflict. Maybe oneday they'll all get tired and say, sod this lets just call it quits. Like they did in NI.
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    (Original post by CHAMON)
    It's a long conflict. Maybe oneday they'll all get tired and say, sod this lets just call it quits. Like they did in NI.
    And then... Torah Qur'an dance party...:yep:

    or not.
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    Just my take on it...but I feel Britain then..and now US/major Arab powers are making the situation worst..it fuels further antagonism..(my humble opinion anyway) back to my reading
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    Firstly there has never, ever been a country called Palestine inhabited by Palestinians. The area of modern Israel has been ruled by many empires since the romans. It was with the Romans that the name became Palestine but it never was a state but a region of occupying empires. Then when the ottomans lost wwii, the british mandate of Palestine was formed. Over half was closed off too jews (transjordan) and this is the arab half of the mandate of Palestine. The other half was divided again into Israel and general arab land. Bearing in mind all the other arab countries formed at the same time as Israel, the west bank is part of Jordan and Gaza is part of Egypt. So there is no Palestinians, or Palestine as this is a modern invention after the 6 day war. The arabs are jordanian or egyptian arabs. Secondly the problem of refugees is a population swap. 900,000 Jews left arab lands whereas only 700,000 arabs left Israel. Those who remained in Israel lived in harmony with the Jews, those Jews who were in Arab lands experienced riots against them and in many cases murder. The Jews were accepted in Israel, the arabs never accepted their brothers. And the jews had given up 4 times the area of Israel in property in arab lands which they never got paid for.

    So now we have estalished 2 main points about Israel. Firstly it was a population swap. Jews forced out of arab lands, arabs left on promises by fellow arabs they would return victorious. Either way, the population swapped. Then after the 6 day war and realising that Israel was here to stay, along come this brand new race of Jordanian and Egyptians called Palestinians. If they truly wanted piece they wouldn't want another state in an area of 1/640th of the arab lands but live along side the people who live there and stop complaining.
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    I would say that, yes, there probably was a hint of colonialism in the setting up of a Jewish state in the Middle East. I don't think it really matters anymore though, since I imagine a majority of Jews in Israel today were born there.
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    Can I gently remind everyone to stay on topic which is specifically about whether Zionism was a form of colonialism. Generic Israel related stuff can go in the "Israel Thread" that's floating around.

    And Gremlins - doesn't colonialism require a "motherland" of some sort? In this case there wasn't one, wasn't it just a case of mass-migration?
 
 
 
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