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Can someone make a list of for and against points? Thanks!
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an Siarach
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For : Will prevent pointless death/s if there is risk to the mother.

Against : Is generally used as a form of contraception by those who make no attempt to accept responsibility for their life.

(Original post by lessthanthree)
It's my body and my life. If a baby doesn't fit into the scheme of things, either on an emotional or even financial level, it can go.
Can stop life being completely ruined
Unwanted children not forcibly brought into the world that often.
Parents who are separated are not lumbered with connection
Children don't grow up with stigma of being "mistakes"
Which basically sums up the hugely selfish nature of pro abortionists in general. If a pregnancy is potentially so disasterous to ones life they should make sure they do not get pregnant which is not especially hard if you take the correct precautions. Do you honestly think the argument of 'oh itl save them the stigma of being unwanted' is worthwhile? Find me a child from a broken home who will happily state 'yes i wish id been aborted so i wouldnt have this stigma' or 'yes i wish id been aborted so my poor parents wouldnt have to face up to their responsibilities'. Beyond pregnancy via rape which is so rare as to be meaningless to the discussion it is practically impossible to become pregnant unless one fails to take correct precautions.
It should be made easier for a newborn child to be put up for abortion in the case of it being unwanted but the 9 months minor inconvenience that the reluctant mother would have to suffer would doubtlessly have feminists up in arms as we all know a human life is worth far less than 3/4 of a year you might otherwise enjoy without responsibility if abortions were available at whim without necessity :rolleyes: .
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curryADD
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(Original post by You)
Can someone make a list of for and against points? Thanks!
for-
it's my body
can't have a country become a theocracy
truth is relative
it's not REALLY alive

against-
you're killing a baby
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curryADD
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(Original post by an Siarach)
For : Will prevent pointless death/s if there is risk to the mother.

Against : Is generally used as a form of contraception by those who make no attempt to accept responsibility for their life.


Which basically sums up the hugely selfish nature of pro abortionists in general. If a pregnancy is potentially so disasterous to ones life they should make sure they do not get pregnant which is not especially hard if you take the correct precautions. Do you honestly think the argument of 'oh itl save them the stigma of being unwanted' is worthwhile? Find me a child from a broken home who will happily state 'yes i wish id been aborted so i wouldnt have this stigma' or 'yes i wish id been aborted so my poor parents wouldnt have to face up to their responsibilities'. Beyond pregnancy via rape which is so rare as to be meaningless to the discussion it is practically impossible to become pregnant unless one fails to take correct precautions.
It should be made easier for a newborn child to be put up for abortion in the case of it being unwanted but the 9 months minor inconvenience that the reluctant mother would have to suffer would doubtlessly have feminists up in arms as we all know a human life is worth far less than 3/4 of a year you might otherwise enjoy without responsibility if abortions were available at whim without necessity :rolleyes: .
yes. but we live in a secular country do we not? which means that views based upon religion cannot become law. end of discussion.
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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Pro Life Arguments:
- The embryo/foetus is a potential/actual human being and so has the right to life.
- All human life is sacred
- Abortion at some stages causes terrible pain for the foetus.
- Abortions' legality will lead to people using contraception less, and/or placing less value on sexual relationships and considering their consequences.
- May cause psychological and physical damage to the woman involved.

Pro Choice Arguments:
- The woman has a right to do as she wishes with her body (the embryo/foetus is part of her body, It could be argued).
- Sometimes the woman has no choice about getting pregnant (rape).
- Up to a certain age, the embryo/foetus has no nervous system and cannot feel pain.
- It may be better for a child that would be born with life-ruining disabilities to not be born at all.
- An unwanted child would live a life feeling rejected if they were born.

Personally, I'm pro-choice to a degree.

I'm not too enamoured with Lessthanthree's attitude though...
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an Siarach
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(Original post by curryADD)
for-
it's my body
Its not your body thats being killed in the abortion.
(Original post by curryADD)
can't have a country become a theocracy
This is not a religious issue. The fact that debate on it is often motivated by religion does not make it so.
(Original post by curryADD)
truth is relative
Yup.
(Original post by curryADD)
it's not REALLY alive
How do you come to this conclusion? If you define life by consciousness then are you also in favour of having all those with mental disability etc killed? What level of consciousness is necessary to make it into your accepted grouping of humanity?
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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Heh, let's not get into a debate here.

Honestly, there is a compromise position...
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an Siarach
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(Original post by curryADD)
yes. but we live in a secular country do we not? which means that views based upon religion cannot become law.
Views based on religion cannot become law? Youl have to take away most of the founding principles/laws of our secular society then as they were motivated by the religion/enacted by the religious. Also secular is non religious not anti religious which is probably the closest description to fit what you describe. Honestly that really is one of the most laughably stupid statements ive ever seen on this forum.
(Original post by curryADD)
end of discussion.
Yes indeed.
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an Siarach
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(Original post by Will)
- Sometimes the woman has no choice about getting pregnant (rape).
- Up to a certain age, the embryo/foetus has no nervous system and cannot feel pain.
- It may be better for a child that would be born with life-ruining disabilities to not be born at all.
These are the only legitimate reasons for abortion really although the final one regarding disabilities its slightly dodgy as it requires elaboration on what constitutes 'life ruining'.
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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Well, any disability that will lead to a very poor quality of life.

Usually this would consist of physical and mental disabilities together. Also, if the baby will die soon after being born, is it best to put the woman through the stress of childbirth or abort the embryo/foetus?
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an Siarach
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(Original post by Will)
Well, any disability that will lead to a very poor quality of life.

Usually this would consist of physical and mental disabilities together. Also, if the baby will die soon after being born, is it best to put the woman through the stress of childbirth or abort the embryo/foetus?
Yeah id agree with that. What i am wary of is a child being aborted for something incredibly trivial like a cleft palette.
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pedy1986
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This is always a hard case for me, because it seems the principle which underpins everything is - does this count as killing a baby? People point to 'potential' to become a human, but are sperm/eggs not potentials?

For myself, and curryADD this is not a religious viewpoint merely a moral viewpoint I view the joining of the a sperm-egg as saying a human life will be made and therefore although its hard if not impossible to dertmine if it is human, or what we constitute as a person I find my innate sense of morality saying its wrong.

However, I accept practcality and serve disablities etc may be grounds for it. I think the many argument for those pro-choice is not 'its a bunch of cells' but the infeasiblity of not having it legalised - backstreet abortions, going to other countries where standards may not be as high etc.
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Douglas
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(Original post by You)
Can someone make a list of for and against points? Thanks!
Personally, I against abortion, of course, I'm a male, so it's not my body.

However, I can tolerate abortions up to the middle of the 2nd trimester.

I agree with an Siarach, with the myriad of contraceptive devices and remedies available for the prevention of impregnation, I can't see why anyone should have an unwanted pregnancy....except for rape, which is infinitesimally
small compared to the millions of abortions per year.
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JHutcher
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Why aren't ewe a relgious country?

Our PM is on the verge of converting to catholicism, all major services have chaplincies dominating their customs, our laws are western and christian, our people include over 40 million christians alone, relgion is often a topic debated, its stull studied in the UK, Bishops sit in the house of Lords, the Arch Bishop of Canterbury is appointed by the PM, prayers are said in the government chambers before the days business begins, our head of state is also a relgious figure head, our capital city boasts 4 cathedrals, we have state funded relgious schools.

tell me why we are not a relgious country?

secondly, how can you ask someone of faith to seperate the issue of abortion and religion. I am not catholic but if i was then i would adhere to the word of the church which in their opinion is an aspect of Divine law... which states abortion is wrong and against the will of God. I think that mkaes it very firmly a religious issue as well as one based on morality.

I would also like to hear if you can prove that relgion and morality ar enot linked as the subject has been debated for thousands of years, so an answer would be nice.

Who has the right to withdraw or grant life? who says when life begins? these are the questions associated witht he debate and both are addressed by religion.

Do not attempt to seperate the issue, as without relgion then there is no consequence in the issue of abortion as science tells us all we need to know from the perspective of pragmatism. What does it matter if abortion is right or wrong and it is going to happen anyway with no consequence?
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JHutcher
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(Original post by Douglas)
Personally, I against abortion, of course, I'm a male, so it's not my body.

However, I can tolerate abortions up to the middle of the 2nd trimester.

I agree with an Siarach, with the myriad of contraceptive devices and remedies available for the prevention of impregnation, I can't see why anyone should have an unwanted pregnancy....except for rape, which is infinitesimally
small compared to the millions of abortions per year.


contraception is still a bone of contention within the catholic church, neither is it 100% in any circumstance... speaking as a child concieved despite the use of a coil.

My question concerns why the 2nd trimester... why not the 3rd or 1st?
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habosh
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for if the baby is not normal
against if the baby is normal and pregnancy more than 4/5 months
if you want to abort it you could've abort it earlier not wait till the womb has a soul
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Golden Maverick
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(Original post by Douglas)
I agree with an Siarach, with the myriad of contraceptive devices and remedies available for the prevention of impregnation, I can't see why anyone should have an unwanted pregnancy....except for rape, which is infinitesimally
small compared to the millions of abortions per year.
I'm not so sure about this - condoms, the most commonly used contraceptive, are only 98% effective. Hormonal contraception methods have a 99% annual effectiveness (if 100 women used it for a year, 1 would become pregnant).
Unwanted pregnancies do occur even when precautions are taken, should these people not be allowed to have an abortion?
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an Siarach
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(Original post by JHutcher)
contraception is still a bone of contention within the catholic church, neither is it 100% in any circumstance... speaking as a child concieved despite the use of a coil.

My question concerns why the 2nd trimester... why not the 3rd or 1st?
True no contraceptive - beyond abstinance but lets not bother going into that - is 100% successful but using a combination of contraceptives, PROPERLY mind (most pregnancies from 'failed' contraceptives are a result of incorrect use), reduces the chances of failure to something completely meaningless.
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Golden Maverick
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(Original post by an Siarach)
True no contraceptive - beyond abstinance but lets not bother going into that - is 100% successful but using a combination of contraceptives, PROPERLY mind (most pregnancies from 'failed' contraceptives are a result of incorrect use), reduces the chances of failure to something completely meaningless.
How can any number be meaningless? Even a combined faliure rate of 0.1% would mean a few thousand unwanted pregnancies in the UK, sure some of these will be between serious couples and there will be no problem, but what about teenage pregnancies? Should they have to have the baby?
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an Siarach
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(Original post by Golden Maverick)
I'm not so sure about this - condoms, the most commonly used contraceptive, are only 98% effective. Hormonal contraception methods have a 99% annual effectiveness (if 100 women used it for a year, 1 would become pregnant).
Unwanted pregnancies do occur even when precautions are taken, should these people not be allowed to have an abortion?
I dont doubt unwanted pregnancies occur when precautions are taken but i doubt they occur in cases were all available contraceptives were taken. As said previously a better system for abortions etc should be put into place to ensure proper care is taken of unwanted children but anyone whos unwilling to put up with a bit of bother for 9 months of their life (self inflicted bear in mind) so that another may live is a particularly worthless character really.
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