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cheesecakebobby
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#21
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#21
(Original post by JHutcher)
Why aren't ewe a relgious country?

Our PM is on the verge of converting to catholicism, all major services have chaplincies dominating their customs, our laws are western and christian, our people include over 40 million christians alone, relgion is often a topic debated, its stull studied in the UK, Bishops sit in the house of Lords, the Arch Bishop of Canterbury is appointed by the PM, prayers are said in the government chambers before the days business begins, our head of state is also a relgious figure head, our capital city boasts 4 cathedrals, we have state funded relgious schools.

tell me why we are not a relgious country?
40 million Christians? Come on. The country's religious leaders themselves are starting to admit that Britain is becoming atheist. Most of those Christians do nothing more than celebrate Christmas and give each other Easter Eggs. If there were enough dedicated religious people in this country, it would be religious. And I would probably leave for somewhere where civil liberties are not decided on an old book.

Anywho my opinion of abortion is that it is one of the most touchy subjects out there. While I definately feel sympathy for mothers for whom becoming pregnant is a real problem (whether it be rape, or health issue etc), I don't see how we could justify not letting women who become pregnant through promiscuity etc have an abortion. You simply cannot discriminate in that way, whatever your moral position. The other huge issue is of course, when is the collection of cells a human being? A common answer is that the latest time for abortion should be before a baby could be prematurely born but survive. However, babies have been born within the legal period and survived. You cannot say just by looking and saying "oh it has fully formed legs, its too old to be aborted" either. Its a tough problem, and one I don't have a complete answer to.
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an Siarach
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Golden Maverick)
How can any number be meaningless? Even a combined faliure rate of 0.1% would mean a few thousand unwanted pregnancies in the UK, sure some of these will be between serious couples and there will be no problem, but what about teenage pregnancies? Should they have to have the baby?
Its lower than 0.1% so effectively it is meaningless as there would be next to no unwanted pregnancies and yes for those which do occur the child should be born - the responsibility remains with the parents for choosing to have sex in the first place - and put up for abortion if unwanted but id value its life far higher than the 9 months the mother must 'suffer'.
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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#23
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#23
We are not a religious country, JHutcher. We may have various expedient customs, historical buildings, and 40 million 'Christians' who only go to church at Christmas (or never), but does that make us a religious country?

Nope. Secularism and apathy are the dominant cultures of Britain today.
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JHutcher
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#24
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#24
(Original post by cheesecakebobby)
40 milion Christians? Come on. The country's religious leaders themselves are starting to admit that Britain is becoming atheist. Most of those Christians do nothing more than celebrate Christmas and give each other Easter Eggs. If there were enough dedicated religious people in this country, it would be religious. And I would probably leave for somewhere where civil liberties are not decided on an old book.

Anywho my opinion of abortion is that it is one of the most touchy subjects out there. While I definately feel apathy for mothers for whom becoming pregnant is a real problem (whether it be rape, or health issue etc), I don't see how we could justify not letting women who become pregnant through promiscuity etc have an abortion. You simply cannot discriminate in that way, whatever your moral position. The other huge issue is of course, when is the collection of cells a human being? A common answer is that the latest time for abortion should be before a baby could be prematurely born but survive. However, babies have been born within the legal period and survived. You cannot say just by looking and saying "oh it has fully formed legs, its too old to be aborted" either. Its a tough problem, and one I don't have a complete answer to.

Astounding i know, but yes 40 million by there own admission... i don't disagree church attendence is down but this is not everywhere (churches in the towns have seen a slight upturn). i think the church leaders are repsonding to the changing face of Britains faith, not the lack of it. I think it would be interesting to see how many people beyond that 40 million still prayer.

Celebrating easter and christmas are not what it means to be a chritains but rahter what it means to follow certain denominations. Quakers celebrate neither.
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JHutcher
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#25
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#25
(Original post by Will)
We are not a religious country, JHutcher. We may have various expedient customs, historical buildings, and 40 million 'Christians' who only go to church at Christmas (or never), but does that make us a religious country?

Nope. Secularism and apathy are the dominant cultures of Britain today.

It really depends on what you determin as relgion... to me it is a faith that influences the way you live your life... the 40 million who have faith in God must also concede some influence to Him as well.

Secularism is demonstrated through our lack of outward shows rather than our inward lack of faith. We manage to seperate the issue of relgion and pragmatism successfuly in this country, this doesn't make us secular but more liberal.

my argument still stands and if 40 million regard themselves as christians it must have some effects on some level... and is not wise to dismiss.
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an Siarach
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#26
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There are 40 million christians in the UK if you take their claims to belief as simply a reference to their traditional family sect but active belief will see the figure fall far lower to something more realistic. If one could not claim to belong to a belief without either passing an exam on the tenets and basic knonwledge or the belief and/or attending church regularly then i doubt the combined figure for the religious would be above 10 million.
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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#27
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(Original post by JHutcher)
It really depends on what you determin as relgion... to me it is a faith that influences the way you live your life... the 40 million who have faith in God must also concede some influence to Him as well.

Secularism is demonstrated through our lack of outward shows rather than our inward lack of faith. We manage to seperate the issue of relgion and pragmatism successfuly in this country, this doesn't make us secular but more liberal.

my argument still stands and if 40 million regard themselves as christians it must have some effects on some level... and is not wise to dismiss.
I find it difficult to believe that the '40 million' are vocal enough to change national law. We've pretty much abandoned faith due to science's dominant position in the media, busy lives and general apathy.
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JHutcher
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#28
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Christianity is part of the Uk culture... and an exam is not required. The churches influence exteneds to the right to take away or grant life... which i think you will find for those 40 million is fuly understanded to be God.. even if they can't discuss the theological niceties of the argument.

Active belief is another way of saying go to church... i hvae an acive belief in gravity, doesn't mean i stop and contemplate it in an way, but rather take it for granted... for the believer th same can be said of God.

two things are neccessary for the 40 million figure to be important... one is the awareness of a moral debate in abortion which i think we have demonstrated... the second is an understanding that God has authority over us.

It would be foolish to suggest that even the most superficial of believers could not and does not accpet and grasp those two concepts.
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Golden Maverick
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#29
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OK an_Siarach in an ideal world only a few hundred people's lives would incur 'a bit of bother for 9 months' as you understated.
The feasibility of this - all possible actions to prevent conception would be? Every women on the pill, with a coil and using condoms and a diaphragm maybe with a male contraceptive thrown in? Clearly this is unrealistic. Even if you gave out free condoms so little to no unprotected sex occured this would only reduce the faliure rate to near 1%. If all women not trying to concieve and over an age where homonal contraceptive was appropriate were given hormonal contraceptives this might further reduce the faliur rate, but still probably not below 0.5% say.
How would such a plan be implemented?
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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#30
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#30
I challenge the notion that God has authority over us.
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JHutcher
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#31
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(Original post by Will)
I find it difficult to believe that the '40 million' are vocal enough to change national law. We've pretty much abandoned faith due to science's dominant position in the media, busy lives and general apathy.


it not a matter of changing the law which in this country is firmly on the side of restrictive abortion,,, its more a case of interpretation and imlimenttion.

The acceptance of science does nothing to detract form relgion and to think it does is the lost hope of the 'active atheist'. Acience provides use with no answers in terms of morality and eithics... matters we still regard as ethical and spiritual

Apathy prevent sus from going to church as do busy lives.

Even the Apathetic can be quote vocal when approached for an opinion... low trn out at the polls does not reflect lack of political opinon but rahter a lack of suitable representatives.
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JHutcher
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Will)
I challenge the notion that God has authority over us.

As do i from the perspective of free will

but the issue one of perception not fact
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an Siarach
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Golden Maverick)
OK an_Siarach in an ideal world only a few hundred people's lives would incur 'a bit of bother for 9 months' as you understated.
The feasibility of this - all possible actions to prevent conception would be? Every women on the pill, with a coil and using condoms and a diaphragm maybe with a male contraceptive thrown in? Clearly this is unrealistic. Even if you gave out free condoms so little to no unprotected sex occured this would only reduce the faliure rate to near 1%. If all women not trying to concieve and over an age where homonal contraceptive was appropriate were given hormonal contraceptives this might further reduce the faliur rate, but still probably not below 0.5% say.
How would such a plan be implemented?
Understated? What else is a pregnancy in comparison to a human life but a bit of bother ? Lets not overstate the 'ordeal' women have to go through. Yes if you dont want to get pregnant its not too much to expect you take all the precuations to ensure that you do not become pregnant. How would your plan be implemented ? Well through better education and providing greater opportunities for advice and to gain access to conraceptives. It would inevitably also require a greater responsibility on behalf of those whos actions result in the pregnancy which seems to be the main sticking point as we all know its practically against ones 'human rights' to have any responsibilities to anything or anyone but oneself.
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Sweyn Forkbeard
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#34
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Indeed. God only exists because you believe in him. I think that there are myriad gods - one for each person's interpretation of god.

This has got way off topic.
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You
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#35
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#35
Wow, lol thanks everyone
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JHutcher
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#36
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Its important to extablish the terms in which we should be dicussing the morality of abortion.

I agreed with your first point i disagree with yur second... as i should as a christian.

My own view on abortion is that it is a matter for the mother of that individual child...what you would pick for yourself cannot be enforced upon another.

but i think its important to consider all the points
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Douglas
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#37
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#37
(Original post by JHutcher)
contraception is still a bone of contention within the catholic church, neither is it 100% in any circumstance... speaking as a child concieved despite the use of a coil.

My question concerns why the 2nd trimester... why not the 3rd or 1st?
In the late 2nd trimester and the 3rd trimwester, the babies (fetus) is aborted via the partial birth abortion method. I.E. the fetus is delivered in the breech position, then killed by puncturing the head.
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Golden Maverick
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#38
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#38
(Original post by an Siarach)
Understated? What else is a pregnancy in comparison to a human life but a bit of bother ? Lets not overstate the 'ordeal' women have to go through.
Let's not get bogged down on what was a throwaway comment (by both you and me).
For a stable relationship in normal circumstances it might just be classed as "a bit of bother". There are situations where the social consequences of a pregnancy would be unnacceptable, don't make me find some, you can use your imagination.
Yes if you dont want to get pregnant its not too much to expect you take all the precuations to ensure that you do not become pregnant. How would your plan be implemented ? Well through better education and providing greater opportunities for advice and to gain access to conraceptives. It would inevitably also require a greater responsibility on behalf of those whos actions result in the pregnancy which seems to be the main sticking point as we all know its practically against ones 'human rights' to have any responsibilities to anything or anyone but oneself.
I was suggesting they do take all possible precautions, you just suggested a plan akin to my first suggestion. This seems to show you think barrier methods adequate steps to take to avoid pregnancy. As I mentioned before condoms have a 1% faliure rate. This would not give a combined nationwide faliure rate of even below 1%.
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an Siarach
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#39
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#39
(Original post by JHutcher)
My own view on abortion is that it is a matter for the mother of that individual child...what you would pick for yourself cannot be enforced upon another.
But what else is abortion but the enforcing of one persons will on another? That of the mother being forced upon the child? There is far too much emphasis on the 'choice' of the mother. The mother has the choice - with rape the exception but as pointed out before this is too rare to waste time on so pedants neednt bother - not to become pregnant to start with. Once pregnant how can the killing of her child be defended simply because she or her partner finds it 'invonvient'?
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JHutcher
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#40
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#40
A fair point, and personally i would aagree if i was taking a course of action myself.

The mothers opinon counts because the baby has not got one or the capability of forming one. but there are two lves involved in every abortion, and not having an abortion can lead to the ruin of both... as cn having an abortion. its more complicated than simply saying the child has a right to life. Does the mother not also have a right not to be bound by a baby?

(last post this evening as its way too late to be dicussing such prominent issues)
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