Daughter wants to apply for medicine but yr 12 grades ,A,B,C.unlikely to succeed?

tbh pre-medicine there is so much experience you can gain because of the lack of qualifications. Really after that length of time maybe there should be the consideration of entering another AHP.

Yes, i think being open to other areas of medicine and beyond should be on the table.

then they must be happy in the knowledge of potentially never entering medicine which is a tough pill to swallow for some people

I agree. It should be part of the discussion with the student. If one is bent on entering medicine at all costs and receives multiple annual rejections, they could end up in a different place mentally when they are 26 and still hoping on undergrad medicine.

I think it more the fact that Biomed and medicine are different degrees with different core aims and therefore to enter a different degree is then lining you up for a different future career.

I used Biomed as an example, but I was criticised because of the subject choice. It does not have to be biomed. Some other examples could be biological sciences, natural sciences etc.

Although very different, I have heard the US is big on pre-courses such as pre-med, pre-law etc. so students do other subjects before progressing to a medical course.

the problem is, if you want to enter medicine UG is far easier look up the figures. It doesn't mean no one gets in, it just means the whole process is longer more expensive and potentially means you don't reach the end goal of becoming a Dr

i completely agree that would be easier to enter via the undergrad route than GEM. However, there are people who never get in after several attempts.

You are amazing on the Cambs thread I just think Medicine is different to other courses and that's sometimes hard to adjust your perspective too Its just some paths are longer, more consulted and if you go down the wrong path (ie. taking a different UG course) gets you to a different destination.

Thank you for your comment.

i agree that medicine is indeed different to other subjects. I probably should not have suggested a different approach, but my fundamental point was about spreading one’s risks.

Medicine admissions is so niche, and I am sure it can feel like a bit of a pile on when the stalwarts refute your points, but it is not meant that way, honest!

You are right, fundamentally, that if you are repeatedly failing to get into a course, you have to look at yourself and what it is that is causing that and, even if just from a personal development pov, see what you can do to change it, or accept it and move on. Part of that reflection may mean you realise that the path you are heading down is not going to work out. Almost everyone has to face diasppointment at some point in their lives.

What people try to do here is stop people making bad decisions because they lacked the basic info about why it is a bad decision in a particular circumstance. Every year we see people saying they wish school had explained to them why an alternative degree is not a good idea, rather than pushing them into biomed, when they have never wanted to be a biomedical scientist. We would say that if you are considering an alternative degree, make sure it leads to a long term career you would be happy in.

So this should be about getting people to look at their individual circumstances and help them work out what is the best path for them. For almost every school leaver, if they still are insistent on pursing medicine, that is going to be a gap year and reapply. But the fact they are still insistent on pursuing medicine, if life has been telling them they are not right for the course, then that is maybe an issue they need to reflect upon, too
Sadly, no open access internet forum can really cover the individual level of advice needed.

There is also the point that many people who are rejected are "good enough" to study medicine, and would make excellent Drs, but there are just not enough places for all those people. So as I said before, working out why you are not getting offers and seeing what you can do about it is key - but not being able to do that is often part of the reason you are failing in the first place!

Medicine is an oddity in that you cannot really spread your risks, as you make it statistically less likely to happen, and more difficult, if you take certain routes, so risk is increased, not spread. So people need to decide how important medicine is for them, amongst all the other important things in life, and make decisions keeping this in mind - hard to do for your average 18/19/20 year old!

You have argued your points respectfully, politely and skillfully, demonstrating a great deal of thought in a non-specialist area, and I find that a useful addition to our small corner of this forum - I would most definitely not be able to do that elsewhere

I understand and I am happy for my points to be refused and challenged. That’s surely how one would evolve their viewpoint.

Yes, that was my fundamental point. Some young people could be too fixed on medicine (or insert another course) that they go down a rabbit’s hole with little to show for it after years of trying their best. There was a case few years ago of the medicine applicant who had tried and failed 5 times to get in and finally decided to do something else. To me, that would have been 5 wasted years because they did not seem to have been doing other useful or worthwhile activities whilst re-applying for medicine.

I have some relatives in the medical field and they all share your (and the other doctors’) view that medicine requires 100% commitment with multiple attempts. I guess I chose to dismiss sound advice with my earlier rebuttals. Oh well…

Thank you for your final comment. The more I read and engage with those in the medical field, themore I realise that it’s a minefield. Just read today that Drs are demanding 30% pay rises or strike action.

If we could give the wisdom of age to the youth with the energy to do something about it, the world would be a very different place

Of course, if you want to do medicine you should do medicine, but they cannot get in. That is the problem. I’m not suggesting that one studies another subject and then go to do medicine when they initially had the chance to do medicine. Those people have been unable to get into the course. Others have suggested taking several gap years to try to get in, but my response to them was for how long?

Yes, there is no much experience that one can get pre-med without the qualification. If Biomed is the closest link to medicine, that would be a fair move to make as a backup.

What is AHP? That could be a better option.

I understand and I am happy for my points to be refused and challenged. That’s surely how one would evolve their viewpoint.

Yes, that was my fundamental point. Some young people could be too fixed on medicine (or insert another course) that they go down a rabbit’s hole with little to show for it after years of trying their best. There was a case few years ago of the medicine applicant who had tried and failed 5 times to get in and finally decided to do something else. To me, that would have been 5 wasted years because they did not seem to have been doing other useful or worthwhile activities whilst re-applying for medicine.

I have some relatives in the medical field and they all share your (and the other doctors’) view that medicine requires 100% commitment with multiple attempts. I guess I chose to dismiss sound advice with my earlier rebuttals. Oh well…

Thank you for your final comment. The more I read and engage with those in the medical field, themore I realise that it’s a minefield. Just read today that Drs are demanding 30% pay rises or strike action.

As someone who went away to do something else and came back swinging to do medicine, I do think more people should keep an AHP option as a backup. Whilst I’ve agreed to disagree on many occasions with the received wisdom on this forum, I do stand by my view.

People are often unaware of the AHPs when they’re deciding to do medicine. On my last week in the stroke unit, the F1 disclosed to me that he wished he’d known more about physiotherapy when he was applying because he definitely would have done it. His earning potential would be higher and he’d be more in the business of actually helping people recover from illness and injury than he was as a junior doctor. There is great satisfaction to be had in an AHP role and it means that the pressure comes off when it comes to applying for medicine (if you want to) because you’re still in a position to earn and progress in another career. You’re progressing with your peer group, meeting life’s milestones and, unlike plugging away as an HCA or nurse auxiliary, you don’t need a way out and you get to experience life and success as a professional.
This is the route I would recommend for people who’ve tried maybe twice, as it is a good way to leverage that experience that you’ve maybe picked up. Have it as a fifth option maybe or a clearing option (they often do come up). I can see how it would be easy to get into the trap of, oh maybe just one more cycle of applications and maybe that’s where people are coming from when they say, we’ll just try again rather than applying for something else. But I think that sometimes it can be a case of drawing a line and deciding to move on with a plan B. Gap year after gap year would become mundane. I did carer work when I was younger and I couldn’t honestly have done that for more than a year. It’s miserable work with only occasional bright spots whereas as a professional in my own right, I get paid good money and I’m responsible for my own decision making and I’m learning skills that transfer very well into medicine for when I eventually get around to it (an extra year’s deferral on the cards for me!). I’d recommend this over the grind of HCA work or similar any day.

Doing AHP or even nursing for that matter gives you the option of medicine whilst enjoying your work and getting to experience success knowing that medicine is there as an option. No, it’s not the cheapest, but you know what? I’ll actually graduate with far less debt than your average medic because I’m going to be able to fund it myself. So it’s not even necessarily the most expensive option. Plenty of my peers will have paid more than me just in interest on their loans by the time they’ve actually cleared their slate with SFE, even taking my previous student loan into account.

so I think there’s room for an alternative view. And speaking as the person who’s taking that alternative route, I can confirm it can work. And there’s more to life than medicine. If I complete my medical degree, I can say I’ll have had three careers by the end of the last one and I’ll have achieved a hell of a lot. Proud of my life and I wouldn’t change a thing.

Your experience was an example to demonstrate my points on having backup options. As I am not in the medical field, I chose Biomed/Bio Sciences as potential backup options, but my point was for those applying for medicine to consider backup options (just incase). This is to avoid the trap of multiple applications, as you mentioned. Also, there are young people who may be unaware of the other roles in the medical/ healthcare field.

I stressed the point after reading a story of someone on TSR who failed to get into medicine after 5 annual attempts and started a thread to share their story and decision to focus on something else. It was depressing to read and if I was around the person earlier in their cycles, I would have suggested that they had backup options after failed attempt #1 or #2.

For Nursing, I heard that the nursing bursary was removed by the Government. I am unsure how that would impact those wanting to join the profession.

Congratulations on your success so far and I hope you do well in medicine and become an excellent Dr.

The problem with doing an academic degree is that it doesn’t really lead directly for anything. So doing it in preparation for medicine is risky because you end up in the trap of having a beefed up academic profile but not that much more punching power when it comes to applying for medicine. If you put your attentions into non clinical graduate jobs, it becomes more difficult to get and maintain the experience for medicine and life takes you further away medicine. If you continue to put your attentions into medicine, your degree starts to devalue in the event that you don’t get in. If you do a clinical degree, you get to put aside medicine, enjoy yourself at university, enjoy a career, and accrue your experience at the same time, whilst also giving yourself a meaningful means of paying for medicine. I think it is such a positive thing for self esteem to experience success and to cycle back around to medicine at a time in your life when you feel ready. The idea of spending years desperately focused on one goal with no guarantee of success as compared to working meaningfully towards a vocational qualification is just a bit depressing really.

There seems to be a wrong impression that one is suggesting doing an arts degree then coming back to medicine several years later. That’s not the case. The key point is having a backup option that is within the medical world to ensure that one does not put all their eggs in one basket. I understand the counter-arguments that going through the GEM route would be difficult but life is full of risks.

Again, this suggestion is for those who have attempted to enter undergrad medicine and have failed to achieve it. Nobody is talking about having an offer for medicine, rejecting it to do a random degree then returning to medicine later on.

Finally, if one is bent on studying medicine and failing to get in because their grades are too low or other reasons then they must ask themselves whether they are sure that medicine is for them as has been stated by a doctor on this thread.

I don't want to just be argumentative, but it still stands that an applicant needs to look at why they are not getting an offer and make a realistic assessment of whether they can improve it to the required standards (or apply more strategically!). If the answer is yes, then doing that, with a gap year and reapplying will give them the most chance of a place on a medicine course, even if that means a couple of gap years. If the answer is no (and you would need to suspect this might be the answer if 2 or 3 gap years have not got you there!), then an alternative course, leading to career they would be happy with, is a sensible route forward, and GEM may be a possibility, but barring the grades, every other requirement goes up for GEM, so if you are falling short on admissions tests or interview, GEM is unlikely to become an option later on, as standards required are higher.
Most people fail to get a medicine offer in any application cycle - that is not a sign they should all give up!
Life is full of risks, but there is no benefit to anyone in increasing them unnecessarily - we all wear seatbelts, look left and right before crossing roads, do not play with matches, etc etc as we like to keep risk to a minimum. For most people a gap year and reapply if they are fixed on studying medicine is still the best route forward

Yes, it is important for the applicant to have an honest assessment of their interest in medicine and ability to get into a programme. If they fail to get admitted the first time and fail again, there should be reflection and consideration of other options.

Medicine, based on what I have be told, does not end with the MBBS. One would still need to specialise whether it is O&G, GP, A&E, Ophtha etc. So there should be a clear understanding of the road ahead.

Most applicants do not get an offer in any given application cycle (about 40% do). It is not because most of them are not good enough, or do not have the skills needed to be a Dr, it is just that there are more applicants than places, so a reassessment and reapplication, at least once or twice, is sensible. I don't want people who have just applied to the wrong places, or misjudged the importance of admissions test or interview prep, to think they have missed their chance and apply to another course, when they will likely improve their chances with a subsequent A100 application and diminish them by looking at GEM. But nor would I encourage those with CCD A levels after resits and <2400 UCAT, or 12 interviews and no offers, to keep endlessly reapplying.

As I said earlier, this is an individual decision and depends on some very personal factors, and we are trying to apply population statistics to individuals, which never works, but people need to realise GEM is not an easy "second go" at medicine, it is a much harder, longer and more expensive route, even if people are successful

I don't want to just be argumentative, but it still stands that an applicant needs to look at why they are not getting an offer and make a realistic assessment of whether they can improve it to the required standards (or apply more strategically!). If the answer is yes, then doing that, with a gap year and reapplying will give them the most chance of a place on a medicine course, even if that means a couple of gap years. If the answer is no (and you would need to suspect this might be the answer if 2 or 3 gap years have not got you there!), then an alternative course, leading to career they would be happy with, is a sensible route forward, and GEM may be a possibility, but barring the grades, every other requirement goes up for GEM, so if you are falling short on admissions tests or interview, GEM is unlikely to become an option later on, as standards required are higher.
Most people fail to get a medicine offer in any application cycle - that is not a sign they should all give up!
Life is full of risks, but there is no benefit to anyone in increasing them unnecessarily - we all wear seatbelts, look left and right before crossing roads, do not play with matches, etc etc as we like to keep risk to a minimum. For most people a gap year and reapply if they are fixed on studying medicine is still the best route forward

I would say that becoming fixed on medicine can be part of the problem. Medicine creates tunnel vision and it can be rather unhealthy to remain fixed on it for too long. People wrap their identity and sense of self-worth up in it. I remember a few years ago I was brought in to support a student who was trying to boost his BMAT essay score. He had been trying to get into medicine for three cycles and when I met him he was actually really miserable. He’d been doing all kinds of volunteering, had worked in three different settings as a care assistant and HCA and he had every award scheme going. He had completely lost sight of why he wanted to even do medicine. He was desperate to get in because all of his friends from school were graduating. His weakness was his UCAT and he consistently kept hitting about 610 average and that year he bombed it. He’d never managed to do brilliantly with the BMAT either, hence me being brought in. He was considering moving abroad for medicine and he was just a real mess. By the time I came in, he was already planning another cycle. I had a word with his mum and she asked me if I could think of any alternatives because he was just so low at that point and she wanted to give him an alternative. I asked what he was into and we just got a bit a picture together of him. He had load of experience working with elderly people with dementia and he’d had a really good experience helping out a woman who’d broken her hip. He was also really energetic and loved sports and exercise. He had a really lovely way about him. I suggested to him maybe taking a look at physio or OT. He had literally never heard of the latter and actually thought that physiotherapists were a kind of doctor. I looked at Clearing, which was still open and I noticed quite a lot of OT spaces open at surrounding universities. I called them up and they said they’d love to hear from him. He got on the phone and had an offer within the hour. He wanted to reject it but his mum made him sleep on it. He broke down crying when I came round and he admitted how miserable he was and how he wanted so much to be a doctor but he was fed up with being rejected and told he basically wasn’t good enough based on an arbitrary score or an interview that went badly because there was just so much pressure. He wanted to do well and he just wanted to achieve something.
He ended up taking the offer. His mum was able to convince him to put aside medicine and that this wasn’t about closing the door on it, just putting it on hold. He excelled at that course and he got the first job he applied for without any problems. He rose quickly to band 7 and he’s doing really well. He’s just about to get married and he’s bought his first house. Had he carried on, he might have got in but he might not. I remember speaking to him when he was in his second year and he said it was something he would never have considered but that he was so glad he’d done. He had needed a way out. At the time he had been baited by the idea of leveraging OT and going into medicine but it turned out that he really enjoyed it and didn’t want to leave. He’s a great example of how to put medicine on hold and pragmatically start to develop yourself in another direction. Another gap year would have been awful for his self-esteem and don’t think people should just encourage gap years without thinking about how they can erode your confidence after a while. Hitting pause on medicine applications is a healthy thing to do and finding other ways to enjoy a clinical career is a really good option for those who would otherwise be of the view that it was medicine or nothing.
I would never recommend someone just pursue an academic degree for the sake of getting into graduate entry medicine in order to cover up bad grades as you’re kicking the can down the road and you can end up actually worse off than if you’d just applied again sometimes, especially if its in a field that you have no interest in working in otherwise. However, I would recommend that if you’ve had two or three cycles, the prospect of needing to try for a third or fourth is a sign to maybe consider other options. There are other ways to enjoy a healthcare career that give you the autonomy, clinical skills, clinical exposure and job satisfaction that you’re looking for in medicine. If you can think of a vocational degree that you think could make you happy for a good few years, definitely keep it as an option. The earning potential in many AHPs can be nearly as high if not higher for medicine and there are no night shifts either, nor post-graduate exams to worry about. If you want to lean into a more medically orientated career as an ACP, you can, or as a PA. Keeps many, many options open, including graduate or standard entry medicine open. Not ideal and maybe if you’ve only ever done medicine it might seem like the wrong decision. But from the perspective of someone who’s doing it, I think it is a perfectly legitimate way to go about managing your life.