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    (Original post by ukebert)
    And Tradition is not always artificial :hmmm:
    Of course not. Some of it is artificially emphasised and encouraged, though. Here many traditions are tied to classes and subcultures. We have too many parallel identities influencing eachother for traditions and histories to have universal significance.
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    I've lived with about fifteen different families in England, and stayed with several more. I've also stayed with families in very many other countries, and lived in another for most of my life. English are dirtier. Additionally many foreigners and international students I've met in this country have remarked on the same thing.

    Hardly empirical research, but its difficult not to get that impression. Also when I worked as a seasonnaire in the French Alps, cleaning out chalets, my employers told me that of all the many nationalities that gave them custom, the English clients always left their chalets in the worst state.

    Also when some of our friends visited South Africa they were shocked by the standards of our hotels and B&Bs in comparison to those in England. According to them, accommodation in the UK is generally grubbier.
    Some South African friends who immigrated here never go out to eat, because they have mostly been put off by the dirtiness of pubs and restaurants here.


    :dontknow:
    Well, maybe it's just me then. I'm wary of general anti-English sentiment biasing this sort of thing though, to be honest.
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    (Original post by brimstone)
    At Selwyn, we put our glasses upside down if we don't want to be pennied. This is normally ignored though ;
    What if you want to drink something without being pennied? :p:
    We can bring wine in too, but pay corkage for it at the bar.
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    Of course not. Some of it is artificially emphasised and encouraged, though. Here many traditions are tied to classes and subcultures. We have too many parallel identities influencing eachother for traditions and histories to have universal significance.
    I'd agree with that as it happens. It leads back to this whole thing about a national identity.

    People often talk about the British Identity, or the British Culture, and how it has bee undermined by these strange people with their strange food and customs (i.e. the Scots/immigrants). I have never trusted this argument, because I find it hard to believe that any such shared identity exists to the extent that it is portrayed.

    EDIT: From my experience, most ccountries in Europe are ccleaner than Britain.
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    (Original post by Apagg)
    Well, maybe it's just me then. I'm wary of general anti-English sentiment biasing this sort of thing though, to be honest.
    Yeh, but I love England. So clearly that's not the case. In fact one of the 'peculiarities' that annoys me is the fact that English people hate England! They're constantly complaining about the smallest things! They're really negative about it.
    But yeh, as I said..those things aren't so bad as to ruin my preference for the place. I left my parents and brother in South Africa to live here when I was 18. (and I love them to bits) There are loads of things I love about it here, but I think that the untidiness is a real difference.
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    Yeh, but I love England. So clearly that's not the case. In fact one of the 'peculiarities' that annoys me is the fact that English people hate England! They're constantly complaining about the smallest things! They're really negative about it.
    'Tis the English way of doing things
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    Yeh, but I love England. So clearly that's not the case. In fact one of the 'peculiarities' that annoys me is the fact that English people hate England! They're constantly complaining about the smallest things! They're really negative about it.
    Nah, we like England really, we just also like complaining.
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    What if you want to drink something without being pennied? :p:
    We can bring wine in too, but pay corkage for it at the bar.
    Generally, they don't :p: If they do, they'll just drink normally and ignore the penny.

    But formal is no fun without pennying or drinking
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    (Original post by alex_hk90)
    Nah, we like England really, we just also like complaining.
    I've never met people so obsessed with travel as the English. But yeh.. that's all it comes to. They love complaining and visiting other countries, but then they want to come back to the comfort zone
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    I've never met people so obsessed with travel as the English. But yeh.. that's all it comes to. They love complaining and visiting other countries, but then they want to come back to the comfort zone
    It's not a "Grand Tour", it's a "Grand Sneer" (thank you Mr Pratchett). We go away to forrin parts and decide that they are all very well for holidays, but where's the mist? Where's the healthy rain? It's not natural for the sun to shine all the time, and as for the food they serve, well. Hardly any gristle at all.

    etc. etc.
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    (Original post by ukebert)
    etc. etc.
    :five:
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    I've lived with about fifteen different families in England, and stayed with several more. I've also stayed with families in very many other countries, and lived in another for most of my life. English are dirtier. Additionally many foreigners and international students I've met in this country have remarked on the same thing.

    Hardly empirical research, but its difficult not to get that impression. Also when I worked as a seasonnaire in the French Alps, cleaning out chalets, my employers told me that of all the many nationalities that gave them custom, the English clients always left their chalets in the worst state.

    Also when some of our friends visited South Africa they were shocked by the standards of our hotels and B&Bs in comparison to those in England. According to them, accommodation in the UK is generally grubbier.
    Some South African friends who immigrated here never go out to eat, because they have mostly been put off by the dirtiness of pubs and restaurants here.


    :dontknow:

    I don't think how one 'treats' a chalet is indicative of a nation's cleanliness, as other people are paid to clear up the mess. I would have thought it is exactly the time not to care. Plus, it's generally a load of drunk people, which is something that can be said of the English/British.

    I also find it interesting that the English should be considered to be dirty when the results of regular research always tend to show that it is the UK that purchases the most cleaning products, domestic and personal, in the whole of Europe.
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    Btw is anyone in Cambridge at the moment? epitome has a party on this evening, so let me know if you're interested.
    (Original post by Thicky)
    I don't think how one 'treats' a chalet is indicative of a nation's cleanliness, as other people are paid to clear up the mess. I would have thought it is exactly the time not to care. Plus, it's generally a load of drunk people, which is something that can be said of the English/British.
    That was one small example out of a range, and the others were more indicative and wide-reaching.
    (Original post by Thicky)
    I also find it interesting that the English should be considered to be dirty when the results of regular research always tend to show that it is the UK that purchases the most cleaning products, domestic and personal, in the whole of Europe.
    Well commercially, that's because we are completely paranoid about Health and Safety. Don't get me started on this, because I worked in a pub kitchen for two and a half years, as well as working for a community centre, a bar/restaurant and a coffeeshop..did the food health and hygeine diploma etc. As for the large consumption of domestic cleaning products - I would look at that statistic in context. The UK lead many such figures in comparison to Europe because we're the biggest spenders. People recklessly consume in this country, and we waste alot too.
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    Btw is anyone in Cambridge at the moment? epitome has a party on this evening, so let me know if you're interested.
    I wish :hmpf:

    Well commercially, that's because we are completely paranoid about Health and Safety. Don't get me started on this, because I worked in a pub kitchen for two and a half years, as well as working for a community centre, a bar/restaurant and a coffeeshop..did the food health and hygeine diploma etc. As for the large consumption of domestic cleaning products - I would look at that statistic in context. The UK lead many such figures in comparison to Europe because we're the biggest spenders. People recklessly consume in this country, and we waste alot too.
    The most annoying people in the world are H&S people. They have an urge to satisfy their meagre existence by making everyone else's lives unbearable. I had to do a risk assessment every time I went out of the building, so I as a matter of course put "dying of food poisoning" and "getting hit by meteorite" on the form, each with a "High Risk" rating, due to someone not thinking when they wrote the rating criteria. /rant

    I think that the most telling thing is litter, back on topic. I think that Britain has significantly more litter than many European countries.
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    Btw is anyone in Cambridge at the moment? epitome has a party on this evening, so let me know if you're interested.

    That was one small example out of a range, and the others were more indicative and wide-reaching.

    Well commercially, that's because we are completely paranoid about Health and Safety. Don't get me started on this, because I worked in a pub kitchen for two and a half years, as well as working for a community centre, a bar/restaurant and a coffeeshop..did the food health and hygeine diploma etc. As for the large consumption of domestic cleaning products - I would look at that statistic in context. The UK lead many such figures in comparison to Europe because we're the biggest spenders. People recklessly consume in this country, and we waste alot too.
    Which is why I chose to challenge you on the point that was not in my opinion indicative at all, and not on the points that are your experiences and therefore not for me to question (As to the conclusion... :p: )

    I wasn't referring to commercial products, though we do have the strictest environmental health laws going, pretty much, especially compared to places like America.

    As to the research, it didn't cover luxury spending, but essentials and day-to-day items, hardly an area where people are reckless and wasteful.
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    (Original post by ukebert)
    I wish :hmpf:



    The most annoying people in the world are H&S people. They have an urge to satisfy their meagre existence by making everyone else's lives unbearable. I had to do a risk assessment every time I went out of the building, so I as a matter of course put "dying of food poisoning" and "getting hit by meteorite" on the form, each with a "High Risk" rating, due to someone not thinking when they wrote the rating criteria. /rant
    :rofl:
    Btw if Mr Mead tells me something is 'for our safety' one more time.... :hmpf:
    That was his reason for trying to make me move myself and my kit to the Hostel for two weeks. And for randomly putting a massive gate up on the TC entrance to Cosin Court without making it accessible to us. That's about four minutes tapped on to my walk to the department. Very irritating.

    (Original post by ukebert)
    I think that the most telling thing is litter, back on topic. I think that Britain has significantly more litter than many European countries.
    I could eat my dinner off the floor of stations in Switzerland.
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    (Original post by ukebert)
    The first one to penny me will get my water chucked in their face :dry:
    *notes carefully*

    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    My usual response is to fish out the penny, plunk it into the owner's glass and tell them that the Queen can drown.
    Omg, no back-pennying !1!

    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    I once gave my wine glass to a passing servant/waiter.
    We once ended up with some wax in a glass of water after some over-enthusiastic candle-prodding on our part. THe way the waitress slammed it down after cleaning it indicated she was not pleased. (not that that has anything to do with what you said, it just reminded me of it)

    (Original post by brimstone)
    :eek: You can take outside wine in? We're allowed a bottle each too, but it has to be Selwyn College wine with a special Selwyn sticker on it to show you've bought it that day, specially for formal. It's alright, because the wine is cheap (£4.20 a bottle is the cheapest) but it tastes disgusting.
    We can bring in any wine without corkage. Only one between two officially though, but with judicious placing under the table, it's not a problem since they don't check as you enter.

    :eek: £4.20?!?! That's absolute top-end in my circle of friends Sainsbury's basics/slightly better but half-price 4tw!
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    (Original post by Thicky)
    Which is why I chose to challenge you on the point that was not in my opinion indicative at all, and not on the points that are your experiences and therefore not for me to question (As to the conclusion... :p: )
    I think you just like being devil's advocate, whatever the argument And picking up on the one (potential) hole is a bit useless if the remaining evidence is sufficient to prove, or strongly support, the point. I think that it is a good example, actually. If Brits are generally drunk when using chalets, presumably all the holidaymakers from different countries will also engage in similar pasttimes while using their chalets. The difference reflects an attitude and cultural norms of behaviour. Drunk or no, people from other countries didn't feel it was acceptable to leave their chalets in such a state. If the mess is directly linked to drunkeness (because of course they were just as drunk when they packed up and drove away) - then that doesn't change the conclusion any further. The suggestion is that Brits are more messy. How or why they are so, is irrelevant to the question. If it is tied to drunkeness, and it so happens that our country are the worst for binge drinking, then that only supports the likeliness of the claim. However its still a tangential consideration.

    (Original post by Thicky)
    I wasn't referring to commercial products, though we do have the strictest environmental health laws going, pretty much, especially compared to places like America.

    As to the research, it didn't cover luxury spending, but essentials and day-to-day items, hardly an area where people are reckless and wasteful.
    No I disagree. I believe that attitudes to spending don't suddenly kick in with one or two types of commodity. If a person is relaxed about spending, they don't suddenly tighten up and start calculating the prices of detergents, and working out their average useage a month. People are too quick to replace things if something gets temporarily lost, or appears to stop working. And the wasteful element of it is also pretty explanatory.
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    (Original post by Athena)
    Oddly, I always feel Mediterranean countries are dirtier than the UK - dust everywhere, insects, dogs and cats getting into everything, a lot of the buildings in a state of disrepair (incidentally, I very much like the Med). And I always find the produce in the supermarkets/markets looks unsavoury, but I've since realised that's because UK supermarkets like everything to be really standardised.
    I know what you mean, but the climate and the relative wealth of those countries have something to do with that.
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    (Original post by Craghyrax)
    I think you just like being devil's advocate, whatever the argument. And picking up on the one (potential) hole is a bit useful if the remaining evidence is sufficient to prove, or stronlgy support, the point. I think that it is a good example, actually. If Brits are generally drunk when using chalets, presumably all the holidaymakers from different countries will also engage in similar pasttimes while using their chalets. The difference reflects an attitude and cultural norms of behaviour. Drunk or no, people from other countries didn't feel it was acceptable to leave their chalets in such a state. If the mess is directly linked to drunkeness (because of course they were just as drunk when they packed up and drove away) - then that doesn't change the conclusion any further. The suggestion is that Brits are more messy. How or why they are so, is irrelevant to the question. If it is tied to drunkeness, and it so happens that our country are the worst for binge drinking, then that only supports the likeliness of the claim. However its still a tangential consideration.


    No I disagree. I believe that attitudes to spending don't suddenly kick in with one or two types of commodity. If a person is relaxed about spending, they don't suddenly tighten up and start calculating the prices of detergents, and working out their average useage a month. People are too quick to replace things if something gets temporarily lost, or appears to stop working. And the wasteful element of it is also pretty explanatory.
    I pick up on what can be picked upon, :p: and I don't think you can equate the treatment of holiday chalets with an entire country's attitude to cleanliness, and by that I mean the cleanliness within Britain, which is what I understand you to mean. My aside suggested exactly that other countries do not engage in the same past times, that the British are much more likely to get drunk whilst on holiday, by the by, and I hinted that to link the treatment of chalets, where there are people paid to tidy up, to the cleanliness of a country is to assume that there is an expectation that behaviour must be constant despite the different specific situation. In a chalet people can be on holiday from their normality and to say that it is a continuation of normal behaviour is strange. Surely you must comment on different nationalities and their beliefs as to behaviour on holiday and what state they are willing to leave their chalet in. If you had said that the English are dirtier and meant in chalets, abroad, on holiday, and given your anecdotal evidence it would have been perfectly reasonable and I would have agreed with you to boot (not that that is important!).

    As to your proof/strong evidence, you may have visited many countries but did you stay with 15 families in each one? Did you spend as much time in each one? Were those families a true reflection of the broad spectrum of English people? Apart from the family 'shocked' by SA have you spoken to a great deal of English/British people about their views of other countries?

    Pubs are a bit ****, yes.
 
 
 
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