Pro-life or pro-choice?

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Jones448
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#1
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#1
Where do you stand?

What do you think of the banning of abortions in America, Poland and Northern Ireland?
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da_nolo
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This seems to be better placed in society sub category. Also, are you sure you want to start another thread on this topic?

Im pro life. So any ban on abortion is viewed as good due morality, societal benefits, and benefits to family the unit, and women in general.

Ex: 1. Immoral to kill human being outside of self defence.

2. Everyone wants gender equality including fair wages, oppertunities, education, etc. Unfortunately legalized abortion has painted the picture that these things are impossible. Truth is contrary to this picture as abortion has allowed a gap to exist because a woman can now choose to end the pregnancy instead of govt. & other institues providing what is neccessary for women (pregnant or not, child or not) to live and obtain the same opportunities.

3. Many aspects to family unit and women are an equal importance to it. A moms role and love with children are important for that family unit. There is a hole if this role and love does not exist until x time frame. Or that it can be viewed as non existant if circumstances permit.

4. Message form pro abortion activists have always been self contradictory. The fetus means nothing but the woman has a hard decision to make. Cant be that hard if something means nothing. But in reality, the fetus has meaning. This contradiction will get in the way of real healing for moms that need to address grief.

Where is abortion banned in america?

Be good to ask who started laws that limit abortions. In america at least, seems to be those who are against induced abortions in some way
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Djtoodles
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Im pro choice from a practical standpoint and i really disagree with just about everything da_nolo said above.
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sufys
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Pro-life.

Abortion hasn't been banned in the US.
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Talkative Toad
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Pro-choice but don't believe that the state should be funding abortions in all circumstances/don't care whether abortion is state funded or self-funded in general though, as long as abortion is a option for those that want/need it.
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SHallowvale
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Pro-choice. I think abortion is the most ethical way to handle an unwanted pregnancy.
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tazarooni89
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I don't like the names "pro-choice" and "pro-life", because I think they're both misnomers.

I would describe my view as follows: We all recognise that other people have the inherent right to life, and that it is wrong to kill them without an extremely good reason - and in fact to do so would be one of the most serious crimes a person can possibly commit. I have never seen a compelling argument that explains, with scientific proof, what exactly is different about an unborn child (or fetus or whatever you want to call it) that would exempt them from having the same right to have their life protected. In the absence of such an argument, I would err on the side of giving them that right.

This means that I would oppose abortion in the majority of situations, but that I would be in favour of making exceptions if there is an extremely good reason for it. This would need to be equivalent to the sort of reason that would justify killing any other human being. For example "Killing you is the only way to save my own life" is a good reason, whereas "I just don't like you / don't want to take care of you" is not.

I also recognise people should ideally be able to choose whether or not they want to go through pregnancy and become parents. But without an extremely good reason, I wouldn't consider abortion to be the right way to exercise that choice - especially when are other ways to do this e.g. abstinence, sterilisation, adoption, foster care, and (with future advancements in technology), artificial wombs. Of course these options all come with drawbacks of their own, but none as significant as taking someone's life.
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da_nolo
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(Original post by Djtoodles)
Im pro choice from a practical standpoint and i really disagree with just about everything da_nolo said above.
What is practical and why?

2. Why disagree?
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Djtoodles
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(Original post by da_nolo)
What is practical and why?

2. Why disagree?
To begin with there are a lot of reasons for abortion which are reasonable, I mean you can’t actually expect a woman to want to keep a baby from rape or if the keeping the child would cause danger to the parent. They can of course but it should be their decision only. Outside of this you will always get abortion, the only difference is if its “ghetto” abortion or not, and it would increase the amount of ghetto abortion if you banned it which could result in further loss of life due to how dangerous this kind of abortion is.
As for why I disagree.

1. There are some instances which aren’t self-defence. Not that I think abortion even falls into this discussion.
2. There is no correlation or causation between abortion and equality. You make it seem like its either or but its not, women can have an abortion if they want to, or they can have the baby and have support structures like statutory maternity leave available.
3. There are plenty of mums who have kids and don’t love them. So, if there is a hole then it is present with or without legal abortion.
4. I would say that’s more bad messaging than contradictory although I’ve never seen anyone pro-abortion say a fetus means nothing. An abortion is a big decision to make for some people but for others I’m sure it will be a no-brainer. As for the healing of the mum, I sort of agree, get rid of the contradiction and reinforce that no women should ever feel bad for having an abortion, especially when pregnancy is under one of the two situations mentioned above.

While I think there should be less men and women going in raw and spreading their legs respectively, in most circumstances these are the kind of drags on the nation that produce more drags on the nation so for my position I’m happy to have abortion around just to stop these amoebas from infinitely producing like bacteria.
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Napp
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#10
(Original post by da_nolo)
This seems to be better placed in society sub category. Also, are you sure you want to start another thread on this topic?

Im pro life. So any ban on abortion is viewed as good due morality, societal benefits, and benefits to family the unit, and women in general.
Whose morality?
What 'societal benefits'?
There are no benefits to the family unit from an unwanted child, one that cant be cared for or one born with crippling defects that will result in nothing but death and heartache.
How is banning abortion a benefit, in any conceivable way, to women? It manifestly leads to countless pointless deaths..
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da_nolo
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(Original post by Napp)
Whose morality?
What 'societal benefits'?
There are no benefits to the family unit from an unwanted child, one that cant be cared for or one born with crippling defects that will result in nothing but death and heartache.
How is banning abortion a benefit, in any conceivable way, to women? It manifestly leads to countless pointless deaths..
1. Morality we all share regardless to disagreement. However lets focus on the moral or ethics that matter the most, morality within the medical field. Doctors, nurses, etc.

All humans should be viewed and treated as patients where each individual patient is consodered (morally) relevant. The abandonment and ill treatment of said patients should be illegal. Where as all humans are consodered legally and medically as relevant humans. All are patients. Unborn, race, creed, religion, should not change this.

2. Societal benefits. I listed varied benefits to society in post you replied to. To make things easy lets just consider above example for morality in medical field. Every single human being viewed as a patient and relevant humam that should recieve the best care should be something we all can agree on that is a benefit to society.

For the unborn and mother, this means we can rely on honest and adequate care that does not cut short at the amount of money, personal interest, or what ever esle may provide a medical short coming. There are several examples where abortion is pushed during circumstances that did not call for it or misdiagnosed. Unfortunately I am unable to provide an article at the moment that gives direct example. However, such circumstances exist under legal abortions.

3. No benefit from unwanted child who is disabled and other....
This portrays prejudice against those who are disabled and common among those who are not disabled. Also common from those who push for euthenasia. "Get rid of the problem" right? This goes against the morality/ethics that should exist within the medical field/industry.

The life that one may live as a person with disability is poorly displayed as though they could never be happy. ... shesh now this goes into the inadequacies that exist in helping not just those who have kids whom are disabled but those whom they themselves are disabled.

Here is a good ted talks that can help anyone. Just to help us enjoy life more.
https://youtu.be/36m1o-tM05g

Having abortion legal is the best way to keep the problem out of mind and not dealt with.

4. Abortion being illegal doesnt help women? Ha! Helps women the most. U.s.a. saw increase in vasectomy in states that restricted abortion. Banning abortion is the right push to equalize the responsibility in relationships, taking so much of the weight off women.
Thats just one example.

Oh but then women have to be pregnant? No, creates greater demand on what is done prior to becoming pregnant because there is no fallback. No plan b. Either the guy follows suit or move on. Date someone else.
Last edited by da_nolo; 4 weeks ago
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hotpud
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#12
(Original post by Djtoodles)
Im pro choice from a practical standpoint and i really disagree with just about everything da_nolo said above.
I think there is a very easy question that should be answered by the pro-choice brigade. If the life of the child is paramount, are you willing to take on an unwanted baby and give it the "blessed" life you feel it deserves?

If the answer is no, then with all respect, I feel your morals are misplaced. It is easy to stand up for ideals when they don't affect you personally.

If yes, then fair dos. I await you throwing your hat into the ring and adopting.
Last edited by hotpud; 4 weeks ago
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Djtoodles
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(Original post by hotpud)
I think there is a very easy question that should be answered by the pro-choice brigade. If the life of the child is paramount, are you willing to take on an unwanted baby and give it the "blessed" life you feel it deserves?

If the answer is no, then with all respect, I feel your morals are misplaced. It is easy to stand up for ideals when they don't affect you personally.

If yes, then fair dos. I await you throwing your hat into the ring and adopting.
Fair question to ask imo, especially pertinent if they don’t want abortions even in situations where there is a danger to the mother. Although it’s one of the rather strange things you see with the staunch pro-lifers is that they care most about the baby before its born, once you’re out the womb you’re on your own lol.
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Djtoodles
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#14
(Original post by da_nolo)
4. Abortion being illegal doesnt help women? Ha! Helps women the most. U.s.a. saw increase in vasectomy in states that restricted abortion. Banning abortion is the right push to equalize the responsibility in relationships, taking so much of the weight off women.
Thats just one example.
Your entire reply to Napp is mostly just your morals and opinions being projected, which your entitled to have but arent worth talking about tbh.

However the above was a real "gem" that caught my eye. The one example of a "benefit" to illegal abortion you can think of is more vasectomies? Im sorry but what drugs are you on where a) thats a benefit and b) that "equalize[s] the responsibility".

It doesn’t shift any responsibility from the women, if they get pregnant by accident, rape or w.e they are still stuck in the same backwards state where they either have a child they don’t want or can’t afford or find some illegal way to have an abortion and that’s before you talk about things like the child causes a diagnosed life risk to the mother. The responsibility is already that of both parents with child support when separated being a good system-based example. I don’t know if you know this about sex, but its takes two to tango and outside of instances of pregnancy as a result of rape (for which abortion should ALWAYS be an option) the women involved will be very aware that the guy is or isn’t using a condom, she will be very aware if she is or isn’t on some kind of birth control.

All illegal abortion will bring is more death, more suffering and more inequality.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by hotpud)
I think there is a very easy question that should be answered by the pro-choice brigade. If the life of the child is paramount, are you willing to take on an unwanted baby and give it the "blessed" life you feel it deserves?

If the answer is no, then with all respect, I feel your morals are misplaced. It is easy to stand up for ideals when they don't affect you personally.

If yes, then fair dos. I await you throwing your hat into the ring and adopting.
This answer frankly sums up the evil nature of the pro-death camp.

Essentially the attitude is : "I want to be rid of this child at all costs. I want to kill it, but if I don't, you have to take it". Since when has that ever been true? If you are for prison reform - nobody says that you should have to use your home to house inmates. If you campaign against rough sleeping, part of that solution isn't inviting rough sleepers into your own home. These are absurdities.

I personally believe that at some point in the first several weeks of pregnancy, there is essentially a human life in the womb. Unless there is a very good reason, it is wrong to destroy that life. Sure, there will be some exceptions for life threatening illness.

But the most common retort of the pro-deathers is always "rape and incest". These are very very small numbers relative to late term abortion numbers.

The problem is that there are very very few people who oppose abortion under all circumstances, but there are large numbers of people who support it under all circumstances.

The most evil and cruel take is this:

(Original post by SHallowvale)
Pro-choice. I think abortion is the most ethical way to handle an unwanted pregnancy.
At what point? If you have a 7 or 8 or 9 month pregnancy which is unwanted - how on earth is killing that child "the most ethical way"?

Sure, late term abortions are a minority - but there are so many abortions that these are very big numbers.

Women have bodily autonomy. They can choose to not have sex. Children are not chattels that feckless women can just choose to destroy at their own whim, using feminism as a figleaf. The left-wing thirst for death is going to be one of the lasting stains on humanity when we look back on this time in human history.
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hotpud
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#16
(Original post by Trinculo)
Essentially the attitude is : "I want to be rid of this child at all costs. I want to kill it, but if I don't, you have to take it".
Which is a fabulous opinion to have while it is affecting someone else. Then all of a sudden, the condom busts, or your girlfriend is raped and then you are having to make that decision and all of a sudden those true morals start to falter when reality bites and the shoe is on the other foot.

Whether you like it or not, babies are born which are not planned for or wanted. Such is life in all its glorious shades and colours. Yet you choose to judge mothers who do not feel able to take on the life long commitment of raising a child.

In my book, you can only judge if you are prepared to put your money where your mouth is. So if you are prepared to judge someone who doesn't want their child are you prepared to bankroll them so they can give their child the life you feel the child deserves?
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da_nolo
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#17
(Original post by Djtoodles)
To begin with there are a lot of reasons for abortion which are reasonable, I mean you can’t actually expect a woman to want to keep a baby from rape or if the keeping the child would cause danger to the parent. They can of course but it should be their decision only. Outside of this you will always get abortion, the only difference is if its “ghetto” abortion or not, and it would increase the amount of ghetto abortion if you banned it which could result in further loss of life due to how dangerous this kind of abortion is.
As for why I disagree.

1. There are some instances which aren’t self-defence. Not that I think abortion even falls into this discussion.
2. There is no correlation or causation between abortion and equality. You make it seem like its either or but its not, women can have an abortion if they want to, or they can have the baby and have support structures like statutory maternity leave available.
3. There are plenty of mums who have kids and don’t love them. So, if there is a hole then it is present with or without legal abortion.
4. I would say that’s more bad messaging than contradictory although I’ve never seen anyone pro-abortion say a fetus means nothing. An abortion is a big decision to make for some people but for others I’m sure it will be a no-brainer. As for the healing of the mum, I sort of agree, get rid of the contradiction and reinforce that no women should ever feel bad for having an abortion, especially when pregnancy is under one of the two situations mentioned above.

While I think there should be less men and women going in raw and spreading their legs respectively, in most circumstances these are the kind of drags on the nation that produce more drags on the nation so for my position I’m happy to have abortion around just to stop these amoebas from infinitely producing like bacteria.
A.) abortion and rape are tricky conversations sometimes. both sides (for/against abortion) come from sympathetic intentions and positions. at the forefront, pro-life argument pushes respect for both victims. also desire to refrain from furthering acts of violence against the woman. for any whom have suffered in this way, please know there is support out there. rely on family but also rely on professional help to navigate the grief. groups exist that bring victims together to give a safe place to speak. all changing from victim to survivor. Mentally this is better.

There have been many women survivors (who experienced rape) to speak against abortion. to explain how their actions brought greater healing. there are also women who choose abortion and explain their experiences to being worst than rape or a triggering moment to relive it. I am open to learning more in this topic from both sides on the discussion. there have been many to keep their pregnancy as well as child, coming forth "stronger" (in their words). if anyone knows an article or survey on the topic that shares the perspective from women who suffered rape, remained pregnant, but regreted it...please share. I am open on reading such info.

here is an article from a feminist Serrin M. Foster on the topic. https://www.feministsforlife.org/what-about-rape/
I'd say following could be sensitive.
Spoiler:
Show
What if your daughter was raped?

I would love her and my grandchild unconditionally, and I would do everything in my power to prosecute the perpetrator to the fullest extent of the law.

Out of our desire to save someone from suffering, it is normal to wish we could erase a painful memory such as rape. Unfortunately, the hard truth is that as much as we want to, we can’t.

Abortion doesn’t erase a memory. Think about it.

At my lecture at Vanderbilt University, a medical student told other students that abortion is a second act of violence against a woman who is raped, and said her “abortion was worse than the rape.”

Both victims — the woman and her child — deserve our unconditional support.


Pregnancy can be punishing, but a child is not a punishment. When Julie Makimaa was reunited with her birthmother, Lee Ezell (“Victory Over Violence,” The American Feminist, vol. 5, no. 3), Julie asked her if it would have been better for Lee if Julie was never born at all.

Lee told Julie that she was the “only good thing to come out of the rape.”

When someone asks about exceptions for rape and incest, we must also consider how that makes those feel who were conceived through sexual assault.

Well-meaning statements can hurt. As one UC-Berkeley grad student said to her pro-choice peers, “I have a right to be here.”

They responded, “We didn’t mean you!” She asked, “Whom did you think you meant?”

My mother told this story to a coworker who agreed and said, “People never think they are talking to an exception — like me.”

rebeccaad
Could you look at someone conceived in violence and tell her that she never should have been born? What if it turned out to be your best friend — or a relative? Would that change the way you felt about her? Would you think less of her mother? Rebecca Kiessling, a young attorney and mother who was conceived through sexual assault, asks, “Did I deserve the death penalty?” Can you imagine if we ranked the value of people based on the circumstances of their conception?

We don’t discriminate based on parentage — that’s not equality! You are valuable no matter who your parents are, no matter the circumstances of your conception.

People used to value a woman based on who her father or husband was. It is similarly medieval to value a child by the actions of her father. That way of thinking is patriarchal and antifeminist, and it should have gone out with the Dark Ages.

Abortion after rape is misdirected anger. It doesn’t punish the perpetrator of the crime or prevent further assaults against other women.

FFL’s priority is keeping women safe. Incarcerated sexual offenders should not be allowed pornography, barbells, and early release. We need harsh sentences for sexual assault without possibility of parole.

We need comprehensive support for rape victims who become pregnant. A convicted rapist should never have paternal rights or be able to demand visitation from “his” children while in prison. But if he has the means, he should contribute child support. If a woman is poor and cannot prove the paternity, she could have problems collecting welfare. Small employers could fire her. We need to listen to those who have had children conceived through sexual assault and work for short- and long-term solutions that benefit both.

Feminists for Life is a proud supporter of the Violence Against Women Act. In fact, we were the only pro-life group active in the National Task Force on Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence.

After a lecture at a midwestern university where I shared the story of Lee and Julie, a student pulled me aside. She told me that she was raped by her third cousin as a mere thirteen-year-old and had became pregnant. Her parents had helped her have the privacy she wanted during her pregnancy, and then she placed her son with two loving parents.

I asked her, why did she make the decision to have the child — when she was just a girl who had lived through what was arguably the worst of circumstances? She said she would never pass on the violence that was perpetrated against her to her own unborn child. Now that is the strength of a woman!

Because women deserve better,

However, important to note that many countries and anti-abortion groups would allow acceptation to abortion or other operations that may result in unborn death for cases of rape and medical reasons.

B) in regards to medical. may you or anyone please list or provide example to medical reasons? many times people say "danger to the mother," but provide examples that abortion is not necessary. in some cases abortion can not be used at all, like still births. instead, even abortion technicians have provided insight to medical situations where other options are more viable for both woman and child.

important to note that in many medical examples, the child is wanted - not unwanted.

1. there may be instances where people choose to kill other humans, some even deemed necessary. however, still not proclaimed as moral. which is why there has been pushes against some of these killings like death penalty, war, etc. if we look at how a community functions, we can see how laws protect self defense cases but analyze situations where a person should not have killed another. such laws are in place to protect citizens and maintain a functioning community. still I'd bet it hard to compare an unborn to the likes of someone sentenced to death or another situation.

2. "There is no correlation or causation between abortion and equality."
then it looks like abortion rights is not human rights after all.
"women can have an abortion if they want to, or they can have the baby and have support structures like statutory maternity leave available."
my point uses pro-abortion argument that a woman can not do anything with her life if she has a baby should indicate enough that the support structures (e.g. maternity leave) do not exist or are not adequate for the needs of the mother and child.
there are pictures thrown around online and elsewhere that depict women shackled to children like slaves. a woman asks her infant "what could [she] ever do without [her child]." where the infant lists what she could have done, indicating a better life.

since the roe v. wade turn over in America, there have been several articles to show that businesses would loose millions of dollars if abortion was not available. except part of that million of dollars in costs is used to provide women maternity leave. so the article affectively complains about providing women support economically - and instead aboriton is the better option. this is not new and has been direct push to sell abortion. there will never be equality with abortion.

3. plenty of mums who don't love their kids? I agree. if this occurs with or without aboriton, then abortion is not the solution to help both mom and child.

4. more bad messaging? I call it double speak. curious, you say this:
"reinforce that no women should ever feel bad for having an abortion, especially when pregnancy is under one of the two situations mentioned above."
when a mom is wanting her child but told she needs an aboriton because there are medical complications. are you saying she should not feel bad because she is having an abortion?

C) for your last comment. I find it oddly familiar to something Margaret Sanger is reported to saying. the people who drag on the system and such should have abortion available to them for all situations to help reduce their population. except - for Margaret, her people who drag on the system are Africans.
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da_nolo
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#18
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#18
(Original post by hotpud)
I think there is a very easy question that should be answered by the pro-choice brigade. If the life of the child is paramount, are you willing to take on an unwanted baby and give it the "blessed" life you feel it deserves?

If the answer is no, then with all respect, I feel your morals are misplaced. It is easy to stand up for ideals when they don't affect you personally.

If yes, then fair dos. I await you throwing your hat into the ring and adopting.
Who are you asking this question to?
Sounds like rhetoric towards anti abortion not pro abortion.
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Genesiss
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Jones448)
Where do you stand?

What do you think of the banning of abortions in America, Poland and Northern Ireland?
would it be safe to say you create random thread with no intention to debate your op?
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da_nolo
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(Original post by Djtoodles)
Your entire reply to Napp is mostly just your morals and opinions being projected, which your entitled to have but arent worth talking about tbh.

However the above was a real "gem" that caught my eye. The one example of a "benefit" to illegal abortion you can think of is more vasectomies? Im sorry but what drugs are you on where a) thats a benefit and b) that "equalize[s] the responsibility".

It doesn’t shift any responsibility from the women, if they get pregnant by accident, rape or w.e they are still stuck in the same backwards state where they either have a child they don’t want or can’t afford or find some illegal way to have an abortion and that’s before you talk about things like the child causes a diagnosed life risk to the mother. The responsibility is already that of both parents with child support when separated being a good system-based example. I don’t know if you know this about sex, but its takes two to tango and outside of instances of pregnancy as a result of rape (for which abortion should ALWAYS be an option) the women involved will be very aware that the guy is or isn’t using a condom, she will be very aware if she is or isn’t on some kind of birth control.

All illegal abortion will bring is more death, more suffering and more inequality.
Lol. All posts on tsr and all comments people make in life are opinions. A thought or belief about a given topic. Your reply to me are opinions being projected. Only quotations, data, and the like are not opinooons.

In regards to my morals. Der as well. I referenced how my view that morality is objective but argued to being subjective. Therefore my focus was on ethics within medical field often refered to as hippocratic oath. Ethics in medicine has long been viewed as a staple for what every doctor, nurse, etc. should do and as something that should exist.

My one example for a benefit from banning abortion is vasecomy? No, the benefit I listed was increased in shared responsibility prior to being pregnant or having sex. Then I give a real life example based recent events to show how society adapts for the better (my opinion) when abortion is banned. More men should not rely on the women to just end a pregnancy.

This occurs because there is greater realization by women that there is no morning after pill. Pregnancy is once again viewed as something to prevent prior to it occuring rather than trying to end it after it occurs.

For the reasons you list, I addressed it earlier. some depict a failure to support families and women in general. otherwise we get into the age old debate as to whom deserves rights because right to life should be a trump card (unrelated to any person).

Then your last paragraph. This part is an opinion. So how is someone suposed to look at your opinion?

Also you said earlier that abortion does not correlate with or cause equality. So if its banned, no equality lost.
Last edited by da_nolo; 4 weeks ago
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