If you have a contextual offer would it lower the requirement for GCSE

Reply 20

20

Original post

by Baleroc

Well, you didn't tell me what page I should look at, I don't fancy sifting through a 36 page document :smile:

But nevertheless, unless that data includes all the way back when A-level math was introduced (in 1951, according to Wikipedia [1]), then it becomes invalidated. Until you find a document, where, from 1951 - 2022, it has to show all the A-level math result, with their respective result at GCSE in math, then it doesn't prove your example.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCE_Advanced_Level_(United_Kingdom)

I note you don't address my last point :frown:

There were O levels back then anyway

Reply 21

Baleroc

13

Original post

by Muttley79

I note you don't address my last point :frown:

There were O levels back then anyway

I didn't see it as I skimmed over it; I didn't think it was that important, but I'll answer it

Wouldn't someone be pretty foolish to embark on an A level before getting a C+/4+ at GCSE?

Quite often what happens as a student, you don't realise what you want to become until you're older.

When I was 14, I hated math, and I performed really poorly. Extremely bad at it, I thought it was irrelevant to everything I wanted to do. As I discovered what I wanted to do in my life, I realised how important math was in life - it was the foundation to everything I needed to do.

So, a student who is 14 may not realise the importance of A-level math until they get older (perhaps 16/17), then discover at that age they now want to study it in more detail for their career.

So no, someone wouldn't be foolish, especially if they didn't realise the motivation/purpose of the subject until a later point in their life.

Reply 22

Muttley79

20

Original post

by Baleroc

I didn't see it as I skimmed over it; I didn't think it was that important, but I'll answer it

So no, someone wouldn't be foolish, especially if they didn't realise the motivation/purpose of the subject until a later point in their life.

You just won't cope with A level without GCSE knowledge - thread is going off topic but the answer for the OP is 'No'.

Reply 23

Baleroc

13

Original post

by Muttley79

I note you don't address my last point :frown:

There were O levels back then anyway

Anyway, we are at a stalemate, and that's fine.

Ultimately, unless you showed data since 1951, it doesn't prove anything. Even if you did manage to find it, it doesn't matter anyway.

A 16 year old student can perform badly in their GCSE math and get their parents to fund their A-level math qualification. The point I've been making all this time, if they decided to perform excellent at their A-level, that shouldn't hinder them from joining a university that depends on GCSE math.

Reply 24

Baleroc

13

Original post

by Muttley79

You just won't cope with A level without GCSE knowledge - thread is going off topic but the answer for the OP is 'No'.

Yes, you need GCSE knowledge, but the key operative is: motivated student. Right, if you just finished your GCSE math, you can easily re-learn and touch up some of that on Khan Academy and re-learn it during the Summer, then teach yourself A-level math and get a high grade, despite performing poorly.

Sometimes students perform poorly because of motivation, not because they are stupid. Any student should be able to learn A-level math, because it isn't hard. It is easy. It is literally plucking in formula; real math starts at university.

Reply 25

Muttley79

20

Original post

by Baleroc

Sometimes students perform poorly because of motivation, not because they are stupid. Any student should be able to learn A-level math, because it isn't hard. It is easy. It is literally plucking in formula; real math starts at university.

Avoid Khan academy is not great for A level as it's aime at the USA and has terminology differences.

You've clearly never taught A level Maths - many students find it hard. if it's easy then everyone should get top grades but even those with GCSE A* sometimes get grade E at A level ir even fail.

Reply 26

Baleroc

13

Original post

by Muttley79

Avoid Khan academy is not great for A level as it's aime at the USA and has terminology differences.

You've clearly never taught A level Maths - many students find it hard. if it's easy then everyone should get top grades but even those with GCSE A* sometimes get grade E at A level ir even fail.

Anyway, we could literally talk about this all day. But I think we've already given the OP a freight so we should leave it here. It's already off-topic, so there's no point going further as we're moving further down a rabbit-hole now.

The conclusion is: we agree to disagree.

Reply 27

Muttley79

20

Original post

by Baleroc

Anyway, we could literally talk about this all day. But I think we've already given the OP a freight so we should leave it here. It's already off-topic, so there's no point going further as we're moving further down a rabbit-hole now.

The conclusion is: we agree to disagree.

i said that several posts ago ......

Reply 28

artful_lounger

Universities Forum Helper

21

Original post

by Baleroc

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant.

If the GCSE requirements are B in Math, Physics and Chemistry, and a student obtains a C in GCSE Math, Physics and Chemistry, but went on to do their A-levels and studied Math, Physics and Chemistry A-level. Then, they achieved A*AA in Math, Physics and Chemistry A-level. Despite the university normally requiring B in those GCSE subjects, because they achieved a higher grade at A-level then that would over-ride the fact that student achieved a lower grade at GCSE.

Otherwise, it literally wouldn't make any sense for a university to reject a candidate who has achieved a higher grade in a harder qualification.

It's the equivalent of a mathematics student achieving a B in A-level Mathematics that went to obtain a first class honours degree in mathematics, then applied to a job that requires an A* in A-level mathematics; that would be like that student getting rejected because, despite the fact they have a better qualification in mathematics with a higher grade, them being rejected because they don't have the grade required in an A-level, would make no sense if they have another qualification at a higher level with a better grade.

"Oh you achieved a first class honours degree in mathematics? Oh sorry, you didn't get the job because you need a C grade in GCSE math, and you achieved a D grade. Despite your first class degree in math, we have to reject you because you don't meet the GCSE requirements, sorry." That sentence would make no logical sense.

That's not how it works.

Firstly, many medical schools have specific minimum grade requirements for science GCSEs, despite the fact they also normally require students to be taking two or more of those sciences to A-level. Failing to meet the GCSE requirements even if you are predicted (or have achieved) high A-level results would mean they would immediately be rejected.

Likewise if a uni has a uni wide policy requiring everyone have C or above in GCSE Maths, even if they apply to a maths degree with A*A* in maths and FM, they still would require the GCSE grade to meet the uni's general admissions policy.

The only courses where they may have differing GCSE vs A-level requirements for maths are commonly accounting/finance/related courses, where often their entry criteria are A-level Maths to a certain grade or GCSE Maths at grade A if A-level Maths not taken. However those same unis also often have uni wide policies for a minimum grade in GCSE Maths and so even if they took A-level Maths, they would be expected to meet the GCSE requirement.

Whether you think it is logical or not is immaterial, this is how uni admission work in the UK and advising otherwise because you don't agree with it does not change that reality, and simply provides applicants with the wrong information.

Reply 29

Admit-One

Universities Forum Helper

21

At the risk of setting us all off again, and without going into specifics, I have admitted students who didn’t meet our GCSE requirements but did take the subject (or subject area) at AL.

Doesn’t mean it will happen everywhere and usual advice applies. Check with your specific uni.

And to answer the original Q, no, contextual eligibility wouldn’t usually reduce GCSE requirements.

Reply 30

Baleroc

13

Original post

by artful_lounger

That's not how it works.

Firstly, many medical schools have specific minimum grade requirements for science GCSEs, despite the fact they also normally require students to be taking two or more of those sciences to A-level. Failing to meet the GCSE requirements even if you are predicted (or have achieved) high A-level results would mean they would immediately be rejected.

Likewise if a uni has a uni wide policy requiring everyone have C or above in GCSE Maths, even if they apply to a maths degree with A*A* in maths and FM, they still would require the GCSE grade to meet the uni's general admissions policy.

The only courses where they may have differing GCSE vs A-level requirements for maths are commonly accounting/finance/related courses, where often their entry criteria are A-level Maths to a certain grade or GCSE Maths at grade A if A-level Maths not taken. However those same unis also often have uni wide policies for a minimum grade in GCSE Maths and so even if they took A-level Maths, they would be expected to meet the GCSE requirement.

Whether you think it is logical or not is immaterial, this is how uni admission work in the UK and advising otherwise because you don't agree with it does not change that reality, and simply provides applicants with the wrong information.

Firstly, I didn't specify medical schools. One cannot possibly predict, for all possible degrees, the outcome of every single university requirement, as the only way to know for certain, is of-course to contact them. However, during the proceedings of this, I have discovered some very fascinating information:

Let's observe a few interesting facets:

1. A Quote from Warwick University
Firstly, a thread that you were recently involved in, only 10 months ago. I'm sure you remember, so allow me to refresh your memory:
Thread: https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7097197
As a summary: the OP specified he did poor in his GCSEs and he wasn't certain if he achieved a good grade in his A-level, whether or not that would be okay for applying for Economics.

Thus, the OP contacted the University of Warwick and asked if taking the subject to A-level, would satisfy the requirement of it at GCSE level:

Here's what Warwick University say, and I quote:

We would always accept your highest level qualification in a subject, so if you meet the A Level requirement then we would not be concerned with your GCSE grade

This was a response to him, in an email.

So, despite him not meeting the GCSE requirement for math, Warwick suggested he is able to take the A-level equivalent in order to satisfy the requirement - which directly supports everything I've been saying in this thread, as true and correct.

2. Universities without the GCSE requirement if you have the A-level equivalent

This was not the only research I did. I reviewed the requirements for the following universities:
- Leeds,
- Durham,
- Lancaster,
- Bath,
- Southampton

if we look at Southampton's entry requirements for mathematics, it doesn't list GCSE math as a requirement. However, if we look at another course, like English, then GCSE math is listed as a requirement, because it is assumed A-level math is sufficient in its stead of GCSE.

Similarly, if we look at Bath's mathematics course, it only lists English as a requirement, because it assumes A-level math is sufficient for meeting the requirement. If we look at other courses at Bath, like Politics with Economics, it specifies it requires GCSE math and GCSE English, which would imply the A-level math requirement doesn't supersede the GCSE requirement.

If we look at Lancaster University, requirements at (https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/study/entry-requirements/undergraduate-qualifications/#gcse-477168-14), it states:

Many of our degree courses have a GCSE requirement, typically for Mathematics and/or English Language. Requirements are listed on individual course pages. If there is no requirement listed for a particular course, then there are no specific GCSE requirements. However, we consider the overall GCSE profile as part of the application process.

Now, if we look at a degree in Mathematics, we can see that the only requirement is GCSE English Language, which means, by definition of the following:

If there is no requirement listed for a particular course, then there are no specific GCSE requirements.

As GCSE math is not listed as a requirement, then A-level math supersedes the requirement of GCSE math in the course; therefore, students with an E in GCSE math can still get accepted onto a mathematics degree, despite it being university policy requiring a C at GCSE in math.

In fact, if we look at many of our universities, many of them don't list GCSE math as a requirement for a degree in mathematics. Most of them, only list GCSE English as the only requirement. But, for other courses they offer, they require GCSE math. Therefore, that would suggest that A-level math is a sufficient substitute for not having the GCSE counterpart - directly contradicting what you said.

Thus, since we've discovered several pieces of evidence supporting the idea that the A-level subject is a sufficient replacement for the GCSE requirement, then I deduce, that it should be sufficient for other universities and degree courses as well, not just mathematics.

Additionally, for the University of Bristol, I discovered another interesting piece of information, available at https://www.bristol.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/entry-requirements-qualifications/gcse/higher-numeracy/

If you do not have this grade, you need to meet at least one of the below requirements. We consider these UK qualifications to be equivalent to the specified GCSE grade.

So, we went from no universities accept A-level qualifications for GCSE requirements, to now finding several sources, ones that you yourself are included in, that entirely contradict and contravene everything you've said thus far. Hence, calling me it misleading was unnecessary, as in these examples, are ultimately proven that I am correct.

Next, I have also reviewed UCAS's website, at: https://www.ucas.com/undergraduate/what-and-where-study/ucas-undergraduate-entry-requirements

It states:

What if I don't have the right qualifications?

Don’t worry – if you do not have these qualifications but can show you have relevant experience, skills, and aptitudes, you may still be considered. Just ask your chosen universities and colleges whether you can meet the entry requirements in a different way.

Again, supporting my idea that there are alternative ways to demonstrate/prove you meet the requirements, even if you don't explicitly meet the GCSE requirement. In the UCAS example, it shows that if you have the relevant skills, then you can still be considered.

Finally, I have also contacted Warwick university and Manchester university to verify these claims, which I will post at a later date.

Thus far, from my research, it has indicated, and certainly suggested, that having a A-level qualification is a sufficient replacement for not having a good GCSE grade in that specific subject - as I have shown in the case of Durham, Bristol, Bath, Leeds, Southampton, Lancaster, among many other universities. This, however, doesn't imply or suggest this is like that for every subject and for every university, but the sentiment I asserted earlier, and again, I assert now: having an A-level in that subject can be a suitable alternative to the GCSE requirement for the university's course.

Medicine perhaps may be the exception, I don't frankly know, or care. The point is: you can contact the university about replacing a GCSE requirement for the A-level equivalent, and most of the time, that university should agree, that yes, it is a perfectly suitable alternative - as I have shown several times here.

I don't like being called misleading. I think it's disingenuous for you to say that, despite the fact you also provided no evidence for what you said either, being down to your "opinion" as well as mine.

Ultimately, what I said is true, and it's not false or misleading. There are people, such as AdmitOne who has reinforced this idea.

This thread has gone on too much, but what I said still stands.

Update:
As I promised, I said I would update this based on the response from contacting those universities about entry requirements.
I contacted the University of Warwick, about joining their mathematics course with a bad GCSE grade, but having an A* in Math and Further Math, and they said:

You will also need a minimum of GCSE grade 4 or C (or an equivalent qualification) in English Language and either Mathematics or a Science subject. However, as Mathematics is being taken at A Level in your case and is required for the course, this would supersede the GCSE Mathematics requirement and allow your application to be considered without the GCSE Mathematics requirement.

Which means that Warwick do accept A-level math/Further math, as an acceptable alternative to not having GCSE math.

In terms of the University of Manchester, they were more complicated. They said

due to high levels of competition for places on our programmes, we do require students to have met our GCSE requirements regardless of their A Level results. it is unlikely you would receive an offer with 5 in GCSE Maths.

That doesn't mean, however, that what I said was wrong. That means that for very popular and competitive universities with a high volume of applications - like Manchester, Imperial, Oxford/Cambridge, then it's unlikely because of the sheer volume of applications, rather than because they don't meet the requirements. What was said above by artful didn't specify application competition or volume, but rather, said that universities in general, wouldn't accept an A-level to meet the GCSE requirement - which has subsequently been shown wrong from what I've described. But, generally, this means, that universities are likely to accept A-level alternatives to a poor GCSE grade, except those with high competition. For future readers, you would need to contact the university you're applying to, just in case. But quite likely, universities do accept an A-level as a suitable alternative to the GCSE requirement; which as I said, is consistent with what I said above.

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 31

EGodman08

4

Original post

by Baleroc

Also, do note one thing that others haven't mentioned:
If you didn't meet the GCSE requirement for a subject, but you went on and studied it at A-level and achieve a high grade, the grade you get at A-level will override your poor grade at GCSE.
e.g. if you got a C in Math and the requirements are B in GCSE math, well if you went on to do A-level math and got an A in it, then you wouldn't need to meet the requirement for GCSE math.

What if, for example, a psychology course needed a 6 (B) in maths gcse but I got a 4 or 5 (C) instead. But the A-level requirements were A A B and I get A* A A or by some miracle A* A* A*, but didn't do a maths A-level. Would my A-levels get me through?

Reply 32

Admit-One

Universities Forum Helper

21

Original post

by EGodman08

What if, for example, a psychology course needed a 6 (B) in maths gcse but I got a 4 or 5 (C) instead. But the A-level requirements were A A B and I get A* A A or by some miracle A* A* A*, but didn't do a maths A-level. Would my A-levels get me through?

In the vast, vast majority of cases you would be automatically rejected for not meeting the GCSE requirements.

Reply 33

PQ

Clearing and Applications Advisor

21

Original post

by EGodman08

What if, for example, a psychology course needed a 6 (B) in maths gcse but I got a 4 or 5 (C) instead. But the A-level requirements were A A B and I get A* A A or by some miracle A* A* A*, but didn't do a maths A-level. Would my A-levels get me through?

Psychology includes a large amount of advanced statistics. You NEED a good grasp of maths. If you want to study psychology at university then resit your maths GCSE and get a 6

Reply 34

EGodman08

4

Original post

by PQ

Psychology includes a large amount of advanced statistics. You NEED a good grasp of maths. If you want to study psychology at university then resit your maths GCSE and get a 6

Unis that I've looked at don't all require a 6 but a few nice ones do. I am taking A-level Psychology and did it at gcse so I presume that will help?

Reply 35

Muttley79

20

Original post

by Baleroc

Well, the worst case scenario, the student could have their parents fund to pay for the qualification they sit. So, in theory, it is possible to do A-level math, despite having a D grade in GCSE. It doesn't matter who is funding the qualification. The point still stands that it is possible for a D grade GCSE student to go on to A-level math and get an A/A*, and the university should consider that as an override. However, I am aware from what gcx said, they they would need to contact the university and make them aware of the what's happened to ensure they fairly consider you, and it is quite exceptional - but the sentiment is that it is possible.

Anyone with a grade D [ or 3 as it is now] has to retake Maths until they get a grade C or until they are 18. Any sensible parent would not fund this - what % of grade D GCSE get a good A level grade?

Reply 36

PQ

Clearing and Applications Advisor

21

Original post

by EGodman08

Unis that I've looked at don't all require a 6 but a few nice ones do. I am taking A-level Psychology and did it at gcse so I presume that will help?

Some courses will have more maths teaching in the first year to bring students stats skills and knowledge up to scratch. Those asking for a 6 in GCSE maths will have less teaching in maths and more expectation that you already know about statistics.
If you like a university that asks for a 6 in GCSE maths then resit GCSE maths and get a 6 or higher. It will benefit you wherever you end up to improve your maths skills if you want to study psychology.

If you have a contextual offer would it lower the requirement for GCSE

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