Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jjkkll)
    That is what is wrong with society.

    Death has no dignity.

    An impressionable child is going to lose her life thanks to terms like "dying with dignity" being accepted in our society. Death is not a release from suffering or pain, it is an end to life. You have to be alive to feel relief from something. Death is death, it is not an answer.
    Medicine isn't all about saving lives though, it is also largly about placing non suffering over suffering. Otherwise why bother having palliative care services? For some people death is an answer, what right do you have to decide she should potentially have to suffer through repeated treatments?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    oh yes. say she is given the transplant.. questions need to be asked as to whether this will improve her condition, or whether it will prolong the deteriorating process.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jjkkll)
    I don't think you can force treatment on someone unless you can prove they are mentally incapacitated. (surely the stress the family were going through counts as a mental incapacitation, but anywho).
    Concept of capasity is a very important thing in medicine and something you should read up on at some stage. In short. If you assess somones capacity you need to ensure that they: believe that what you are telling them is true, can understand the information, retain it, use it for decision making process and then comunicate their decision in one way or another. All adults are automaticaly assumed to be competent unless you can prove that they do not meet one or more of above criteria. being undes stress definitly does not count as mental incapacitation.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sahds)
    If they can prolong someones life or make it better, then they will do that by all means.
    Unfortunately.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by titanomachy)
    Ranty, ranty, rant...
    You going to say that at your med school interview? Thought not. Roll on.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jjkkll)
    Death has no dignity.
    I think you are both right and wrong. Death may not have any dignity, but it can have an awful lot of suffering and there's even less dignity in that.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Planto)
    There is already a thread for this.
    Yes, however, this one is in the medicine forum and clearly one for the medics...
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Something to think about:

    If she refuses the heart transplant, the heart goes to someone else and can potentially save their life. We don't have an infinite, or even large supply of hearts to transplant, and there are potentially better people to put them in than in someone who will possibly have recurring leukaemia. I don't know if she thought of this, but if she did it was very brave of her.

    Net benefit to society of her decision = roughly the same.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    She seems really mature so maybe she can decide for herself. But then again she's barely a teenager. IMO it's a bit euthanasia-like but for a 13 year old.
    If I were the parents i'd want to do EVERYTHING possible to try and keep her alive, but I spose their respecting her decision so that's good. I dunno really.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BrightGirl)
    She seems really mature so maybe she can decide for herself. But then again she's barely a teenager. IMO it's a bit euthanasia-like but for a 13 year old.
    If I were the parents i'd want to do EVERYTHING possible to try and keep her alive, but I spose their respecting her decision so that's good. I dunno really.
    Given your experience in applying Gillick competence tests and your discussions with this girl, I can see how you are in a position to decide how 'really mature' she is...
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Renal)
    Given your experience in applying Gillick competence tests and your discussions with this girl, I can see how you are in a position to decide how 'really mature' she is...
    I said 'she seems', not she definitely is. Just as in like the interview things they do on the news with her, I thought she acted quite maturely. Gawwd it's just an opinion.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BrightGirl)
    I said 'she seems', not she definitely is. Just as in like the interview things they do on the news with her, I thought she acted quite maturely.
    If this or similar were to come up at interview, I would strongly caution about making, or appearing to make, judgements about the people involved.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BrightGirl)
    She seems really mature so maybe she can decide for herself. But then again she's barely a teenager. IMO it's a bit euthanasia-like but for a 13 year old.
    If I were the parents i'd want to do EVERYTHING possible to try and keep her alive, but I spose their respecting her decision so that's good. I dunno really.
    Is there not a distinction between euthanasia and withdrawal of treatment/not accepting treatment?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by No Future)
    Is there not a distinction between euthanasia and withdrawal of treatment/not accepting treatment?
    Oh yeah they're different, but this just reminds me of it and I just think this is like wanting to die.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by No Future)
    Is there not a distinction between euthanasia and withdrawal of treatment/not accepting treatment?
    Legally? Yes. In practice? Who knows.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BrightGirl)
    Oh yeah they're different, but this just reminds me of it and I just think this is like wanting to die.
    It's not about the desire to die though, it's whether the physician purposefully gives something to bring about death or whether the patient refuses treatment/treatment is withheld.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by No Future)
    It's not about the desire to die though, it's whether the physician purposefully gives something to bring about death or whether the patient refuses treatment/treatment is withheld.
    I know they are not the same, but in both euthanasia and the withholding of treatment, the patient wants to die/relieve suffering/whatever, which is WHY this reminded me of it, that's all.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Blátönn)
    It was an opinion, you know those things which people are entitled to have?
    It was an opinion, you know those things which people are entitled to have?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jjkkll)
    In my opinion, a heart transplant would have for sure increased both the quality and length of her life. But if the girl did not want to live then it would have possibly been a waste of an organ.
    First things first, this is simply not true. Heart transplants are massive, hugely risky operations and there was a big chance she would die on the table or shortly post-op. Even after that, she'd be on even more drugs and it's impossible to guarantee "for sure" that she would have improved quality or length of life.

    Also, the amount of immunosuppression she'd be taking would mean there was a very real chance that the leukaemia could recur, which would hardly be an ideal outcome.

    In a case like this, where the benefits are very dubious and the risks high, I think she (and her parents, who support her decision) has every right to refuse. Whether the doctors should "force" her into it is in my book equally clear-cut - if you look at the four main principles behind ethical decision making (beneficence, non-maleficence, justice and autonomy) none of them are in favour of transplant if it's not what she wants.

    I should also add that heart transplant candidates are given counselling and psychological testing beforehand - living with the knowledge you have someone else's heart inside you is not something everyone can cope with. Given her reluctance, I think it's unlikely she'd prove to be a suitable candidate anyway, and it would be highly irresponsible to operate on someone in these circumstance.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jjkkll)
    That is what is wrong with society.

    Death has no dignity.

    An impressionable child is going to lose her life thanks to terms like "dying with dignity" being accepted in our society. Death is not a release from suffering or pain, it is an end to life. You have to be alive to feel relief from something. Death is death, it is not an answer.
    ...in your opinion.

    In my opinion, she is old enough to make a mature and informed decision on this. She's 13, not 3, and from what the articles state, she seems like a mature young woman. It looks like she's had more than her fair share of ill health, medication and surgery in life, I don't blame her for not wanting to have more if it means she might die on the operating table, when she'd rather make the most of the rest of her days and die peacefully at home.
    I think it's an incredibly brave decision to make, I just hope she's making it for the right reasons.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Brexit voters: Do you stand by your vote?
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Write a reply...
    Reply
    Hide
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.