Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    The current Conservative party is far-left by American standards, my dear. They're socialist, just a bit less than the other guys.
    If you knew anything about politics you'd know that America has been shifting to the right for the last few decades, Obama's election being an oasis in the desert. Britain's politics will be similarly cyclical. New Labour's day is gone. Cameron is nowhere near socialist, and neither is New Labour. Old Labour, yes. SDP, yes. Lib Dems, perhaps vaguely. New Lab and Tories, however... centre ground, my dear
    • PS Helper
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    PS Helper
    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    Lack of habeas corpus, surveillance state, abridged freedom of expression, tyranny of the majority, drug prohibition where the "cure" is worse than the "disease", severely-attacked right and capability of self-defence, rampant socialism... I could go on for hours, literally. I'm happy that I don't live in the Third Reich but I don't subscribe to the notion that modern England is really all that much better.
    Man, you really know nothing about Nazi Germany do you? Also I think every single ONE of your points is highly tenuous and very debatable as to its extent or even if its a bad thing. Whereas the murder of millions of Jews is much harder to debate on the proposition side for a sane person.

    Also, NIHILIST philosophy? Who the hell writes that? You can't have nihilist philosophy... what one earth would it consist of "nothing matters, we are all useless, we may as well die".
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    There are thousands of people in prison in this country for committing consensual crimes. I'm sure it makes them feel much better to be told that England is somehow better than Nazi Germany.
    As for 'tyranny of the majority'... that tends to be called democracy and if you're not keen you could move to somewhere less civilised? Or if it's our appalling electoral system (fairer still than the American one) that is so worrying you, perhaps join the Lib Dems? They're sticklers for electoral reform... :p:
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by matt1991)
    First off, your dad really could have just been quiet and not launched into one. The fact he has lost family members to various conflicts, as unfortunate as that may be, is no valid reason to interrupt a public and national rememberence of our war dead - a silence which most people in that supermarket seemed to want to take part in!

    And to those unfeeling, insensitive and ignorant people who say that just because they didn't believe in WW1, or WW2, or any other war they won'y observe the silence, then I say they're just plain pig-headed and rude. Do I or any other sensible human being condone any war? No. Just because you don't believe in something is no valid reason to avoid taking just two minutes out of your day to remember them and the horrible deaths they died and the families they left behind.

    I, for one, have been to the battlefields of Flanders many times, and it is a moving experience I suggest all those ignorant of war and the reasons behind our national rememberence should do the same. I simply can't describe how upsetting it was to stand there, in the centre of the Tyne Cot cemetary to be surrounded by what can only be described accurately is a sea of gleaming white headstones, each one marking a young life cut short needlessly. This is not to mention the boundary wall of the place - 10 feet high, and covered, top to bottom, back to front with names. Names. Names of men and boys who's bodies were never found, were never reunited with their families, would never return home.

    That's why we have a silence. 40 million dead. That's why. And shame, shame on all of you who can't be bothered to just donate a few pennies to wear a poppy, or take two minutes from your day to remember the lives of those who never had the liberty to form opinions or voice them so freely as you do.

    Respect them.
    This.
    Offline

    2
    (Original post by serrellen)
    If you knew anything about politics you'd know that America has been shifting to the right for the last few decades, Obama's election being an oasis in the desert. Britain's politics will be similarly cyclical. New Labour's day is gone. Cameron is nowhere near socialist, and neither is New Labour. Old Labour, yes. SDP, yes. Lib Dems, perhaps vaguely. New Lab and Tories, however... centre ground, my dear
    You're right, I couldn't agree more. How wrong I was! Supporting the National Health Service isn't socialism. Heck, partial nationalisation of the banks is the height of capitalist economic thinking. Welfare? That's not socialism one little bit. I'm just being silly what with my total lack of knowledge of the party I'm actually a member of
    Offline

    2
    (Original post by serrellen)
    As for 'tyranny of the majority'... that tends to be called democracy and if you're not keen you could move to somewhere less civilised? Or if it's our appalling electoral system (fairer still than the American one) that is so worrying you, perhaps join the Lib Dems? They're sticklers for electoral reform...
    You'll have to excuse me for not thinking that majority, aka might, makes right.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    There are thousands of people in prison in this country for committing consensual crimes. I'm sure it makes them feel much better to be told that England is somehow better than Nazi Germany.
    What has that got to do with anything.

    And for every person in prison for doing something illegal (another great argument may I add), there were millions of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, Slavics, Jehov'as witnesses, the disabled, anti-socials etc.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    Yes, of course. Supporting the National Health Service is not socialist. Heck, partial nationalisation of the banks is the height of capitalist economic thinking. Welfare? That's not socialism one little bit. I'm just being silly what with my total lack of knowledge of the party I'm a member of.
    You're so right-wing that to you, anything that isn't conservatism is socialism. There is some (a lot!) of ground in between. This is what you're missing.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by serrellen)
    You're so right-wing that to you, anything that isn't conservatism is socialism. There is some (a lot!) of ground in between. This is what you're missing.
    That and a brain.
    Offline

    2
    (Original post by serrellen)
    You're so right-wing that to you, anything that isn't conservatism is socialism. There is some (a lot!) of ground in between. This is what you're missing.
    Would you mind explaining how redistribution of wealth in the form of the welfare state doesn't constitute socialism in every sense of the word?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Antonia87)
    Er... well no one AGREES with war do they. No one actually WANTS to go to war, its hardly an ideal situation.
    The fact of the matter is, if men threw themselves into conflict, got shot, lost their limbs, had their faces blown off, lost their friends and family, were held prisoner and executed all for their country, the least you could do is not talk for two minutes. :rolleyes:


    i also think taht the silence should be observed for those innocent people/civilians who lost their life too....rather than just the soldiers.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    I think the people who told your dad to STFU were completely right.

    I've told people to do the same.

    Your dad is clearly a total **** and should know better.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    You're right, I couldn't agree more. How wrong I was! Supporting the National Health Service isn't socialism. Heck, partial nationalisation of the banks is the height of capitalist economic thinking. Welfare? That's not socialism one little bit. I'm just being silly what with my total lack of knowledge of the party I'm actually a member of
    Nice try - pick examples of socialist ideas within a conservative system and then describe socialism as 'rampant'?

    Why do you forget to mention the BASIS of our Thatcherist free-market economy, laissez-faire lack of regulation and worldwide participation in free trade?

    And redistribution of wealth hardly shows that socialism is rampant. Welfare exists in almost every country in the world, and has existed for hundreds of years, so you can't blame that on Marx.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    Would you mind explaining how redistribution of wealth in the form of the welfare state doesn't constitute socialism in every sense of the word?
    That's the same as saying "Would you mind explaining how privatisation doesn't consitute fascism in every sense of the word?"
    Socialists will want everything nationalised and everything redistributed. The further right you go, the less you will have nationalised and the less redistributed. So from left to right: Communism, Socialism, Liberalism, then some vague centre ground, Conservatism, Fascism.
    In the UK we're somewhere between liberalism and the centre-ground. America is between centreground and conservatism depending on the state of the cycle. Nazi Germany was pure fascism and Soviet Russia pure communism.

    Basically, you're failing to see that there are degrees of redistribution/nationalisation just as there are degrees of tax cuts or civil rights limits.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by orionmoo)
    How are you supposed to remember people you never knew, who died in a war you weren't around for. None of my family have been in the army (except my dead grandma who drove some trucks in world war 2). What exactly am I meant to think when I'm commanded to be silent for a few mins at 11. I just sit there twiddling my thumbs looking off into space.
    I expect other people have quoted this post and I haven't read the whole thread. Nevertheless I have to say how disgusting I find your attitude and how dismayed I am at how many young people seem to share it. The silence is not about remembering people you knew who died in wars. If you've lost someone personally then of course it will have more significance for you but to say that it's just to think about your own personal grief is to miss the point entirely. It's almost the opposite - a silence to feel grateful that you've never had to feel that devastation, that you are lucky enough never to have lost anyone or everyone you love, to have never seen the horror of either of the World Wars or any of the other conflicts in which people have been lost. If you can't have the empathy to imagine what it must have been like to live through World War I or II in this country, at least use the silence to feel thankful that you don't even have to imagine it let alone go through it, and that millions of other people gave their lives so you could be so bloody lucky. It really, really upsets me when people are cavalier about this kind of thing.
    Offline

    2
    (Original post by studentbug)
    Nice try - pick examples of socialist ideas within a conservative system and then describe socialism as 'rampant'?
    I was quite clearly speaking of Conservative party policy, not the country at large, which was what I was speaking of when I described socialism as being rampant.

    (Original post by studentbug)
    Why do you forget to mention the BASIS of our Thatcherist free-market economy, laissez-faire lack of regulation and worldwide participation in free trade?
    The UK is not communist (although, it is worth noting that even "communist" states had free markets in certain areas at certain times, so that definition is a little questionable) but socialism in a modern concept is often implemented in a mixed system as is the case in the UK. We have regulation in the UK, and quite a lot of it, actually. Consumer protection laws, laws against discriminatory hiring practices, EU directives and laws controlling sales property ownership. The government of the UK does not particularly aspire to true laissez-faire economics and neither, for that matter, has the leadership of the Conservative party since the party's libertarian wing was beaten in the last leadership contest.

    (Original post by studentbug)
    And redistribution of wealth hardly shows that socialism is rampant. Welfare exists in almost every country in the world, and has existed for hundreds of years, so you can't blame that on Marx.
    Again, that was a specific example which I was using as it is my view that it ridiculous to call welfare centrist policy and I would like serrellen to show how it is not, in fact, socialism. Welfare may exist elsewhere, but its use is highly significant in the UK, and a large amount of taxes go toward maintaining it even though in its current state it is simply unsustainable. Socialism is more than just spreading the wealth around, though, but empowering the unions beyond their just means and controlling markets, both of which every major party in the UK engage or plan to engage in with some relish, although admittedly to differing degrees.

    I do, however, find it quite interesting that many people have chosen to pick apart my admittedly less-strong complaint about the rise of socialism in this country rather than any others even though they are all supposedly foolish.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MittenKrust)
    Was with parents yesterday in Tesco cafe and during a conversation we lost track of time. Some guy came up to us and told us to be quiet as it was a silence.

    My dad said why and was accused of having no respect for war dead he was cold cruel, uncaring etc, then a woman came over and called my family disgusting and cold and heartless.

    My dad was trying to just say that he didnt think that two minutes made a difference, and hes ex army and lost his brother due to war, his dad, his great uncle etc, and asked these two if they had ever been in the army and they said no but somehow they were better people for being quiet for 2 minutes as they had more respect!

    My dad respects the memory of the dead but doesnt think it makes much difference being quiet for 2 minutes but remembering them in different ways.

    But he and my family are seen as disgusting because of that!

    Is this right?
    It's not supposed to "make a difference." It's supposed to show respect. Nothing more, nothing less.

    As for losing track of time, I did the same myself.
    Offline

    2
    (Original post by serrellen)
    That's the same as saying "Would you mind explaining how privatisation doesn't consitute fascism in every sense of the word?"
    Socialists will want everything nationalised and everything redistributed. The further right you go, the less you will have nationalised and the less redistributed. So from left to right: Communism, Socialism, Liberalism, then some vague centre ground, Conservatism, Fascism.
    In the UK we're somewhere between liberalism and the centre-ground. America is between centreground and conservatism depending on the state of the cycle. Nazi Germany was pure fascism and Soviet Russia pure communism.

    Basically, you're failing to see that there are degrees of redistribution/nationalisation just as there are degrees of tax cuts or civil rights limits.
    You seem to be suggesting that an entire country must be geared towards one socio-economic political theory in order for any of the actions of the government of that country to be considered to be under the umbrella of that political theory. The UK is not communist, and I have not and will not say that as it is patently inaccurate. However, modern-day socialism as implemented as a statewide policy is done through a mixed system; controlled markets and some redistribution of wealth, but some choice (though not enough for those markets to be considered free). Many of the policies of all three of the main parties of the UK can clearly be defined as socialist.

    I would also strongly suggest against using a single-axis political spectrum, as it's simply inadequate for analysis of the complexities and nuances of economic and social policy. Arguably Nazi Germany was a bizarre mix of conservatism and socialism, which would actually put as centrist on your axis, which is obviously inaccurate.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I was in a meeting for college at the silence, I explained at 10 to eleven that I would be observing it, there seemed to be no problem when 11 o'clock came I promptly stopped talking. My tutor made a point of asking me questions, which I didn't answer because of the silence. Result is I'm suspended for a week for being 'belligerent'.
    Damn I hate my tutor
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    Some people in this thread have truly disgusting points of view.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Brussels sprouts
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.